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TBar1977

Illegal Slam or Standard Finish to a Double Leg

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Glad you posted that video Holtfan. In Rojas' defense it does appear his head contacted with the mat. In Facundo's defense it does not, and this is just my opinion, appear he used excessive force. I don't know if Michigan has a rule set different than NFHS standard. 

I am no doc so I don't know if Rojas had a concussion or not, but it does not seem to me to be an illegal slam. Facundo did an amazing job just to get Rojas off his feet for the TD. Just my $0.02. 

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EDIT!!

I was misinformed on the video.  Someone I trusted said it was so, and I didn't check it out for myself, I just took their word.  I went back and watched, it's just not there.

I will man-up on this and take the bullet on this one.  

It was unfortunate situation.

 

Edited by Holtfan

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3 hours ago, Holtfan said:

TBar, on the video feed from the MHSAA.tv, you can hear the Doctor telling the athlete "It's up to you" if he wanted to continue. In that video, prior to the doctor arriving, you can see the coach having a conversation with him and no official around.   

I am with you, it's a standard double-leg and doesn't even bring him that high.  It was unfortunate situation and will follow Rojas for the rest of his career. 

 

Is there video of the interaction with the trainer/doctor  anywhere?

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3 hours ago, Holtfan said:

TBar, on the video feed from the MHSAA.tv, you can hear the Doctor telling the athlete "It's up to you" if he wanted to continue. In that video, prior to the doctor arriving, you can see the coach having a conversation with him and no official around.   

I am with you, it's a standard double-leg and doesn't even bring him that high.  It was unfortunate situation and will follow Rojas for the rest of his career. 

 

"It's up to you"

That doesn't seem like much of a medical diagnosis. 

Thx for the explanation, Holtfan.

Edited by TBar1977

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I know people on both sides of this dispute so no dog in the fight. "It's up to you" is another way of the doctor saying "I don't see any medical reason at this point why you can't continue."  If the concern was a concussion, there are many quick ways to see if the athlete is exhibiting signs of being concussed; if the doctor/trainer was competent and did not find any of these factors present, it then becomes the athlete's/coach's decision to continue. Based on the one athlete running back to the center to resume the bout, that seems to corroborate what may have been initially said, but that is not foolproof and head injuries should never be trifled with. (Note--someone who was on the floor at the time said the doctor finally said the athlete should not continue and should be seen at a hospital.)  If the athlete is truly injured and can't continue and--this is important--the man called for the slam was simply completing a hard but legitimate finish and not taking a cheapshot or doing something dirty, it is common practice for some coaches to default the bout back to the man called for the slam.  This then becomes an issue of individual ethics and not medical danger. 

Edited by Coach_J

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

And to put things into a larger context, this was an ugly bout with many less than glowing incidents from both teams.  For example, how was this not an automatic DQ? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cEvtUHeTF04

 

That should be getting more press than the "slam".

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The forearm to the back of the head is a different story.  That is clearly a flagrant act.  State finals or not, that is a delivery of a blow and, in my opinion, an attempt to injure.  While he did get penalized, his season should have ended at that point.

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Yikes.    Coach should've just said that kid couldn't continue and I don't think he'd be getting the same pushback...

Edit: Actually that leads me to believe the coach was telling the truth in his interview that it wasn't his call, since he does reference this incident in there.

Edited by 1032004

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As stated above, my basic philosophy on illegal moves and whether to accept the default was simple:  if the offending man was just wrestling hard and not being an ass and our guy could continue, we did; if our guy couldn't continue, we defaulted back to the offending man.  However, if the offending man was pulling a cheapshot and being an ass, we took the default without any problem.  With the elbow to the back of the head seen above, we would have taken those 6 points--the kid was out of control and could really damage somebody some day in the future--he needs to get the message damn fast that this kind of garbage won't be tolerated.  In the Facundo bout, we would have told the ref we couldn't continue and let both the ref and the opposing coach know we would start the bout again, stop it after one second, and default to the other man.  Had numerous experiences with both routes.  Had one situation in a national finals where our guy was up against an excellent opponent; we were losing something like 5-2 when our opponent lifted our guy and brought him down hard and was called for a slam.  Our kid was a tough SOB and no way would take a national title by laying down after a slam call.  He took about 30 second to clear his head, ended up getting beat by a better man, and we all walked out with our heads up.

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14 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

As stated above, my basic philosophy on illegal moves and whether to accept the default was simple:  if the offending man was just wrestling hard and not being an ass and our guy could continue, we did; if our guy couldn't continue, we defaulted back to the offending man.  However, if the offending man was pulling a cheapshot and being an ass, we took the default without any problem.  With the elbow to the back of the head seen above, we would have taken those 6 points--the kid was out of control and could really damage somebody some day in the future--he needs to get the message damn fast that this kind of garbage won't be tolerated.  In the Facundo bout, we would have told the ref we couldn't continue and let both the ref and the opposing coach know we would start the bout again, stop it after one second, and default to the other man.  Had numerous experiences with both routes.  Had one situation in a national finals where our guy was up against an excellent opponent; we were losing something like 5-2 when our opponent lifted our guy and brought him down hard and was called for a slam.  Our kid was a tough SOB and no way would take a national title by laying down after a slam call.  He took about 30 second to clear his head, ended up getting beat by a better man, and we all walked out with our heads up.

But in this case the default would have resulted in the team losing the match.   If he lost by decision or major, they win.  Would you still default in that scenario?

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You can never say what you will do in the moment, but I can tell you that in a dual once we came down to heavyweight and we were up by one team polnt.  Their heavy was an imbecile, cheapshot artist and we were tied the bout when they were called for an illegal elbow wrench in neutral--we are now up by one.  We take the fall we win the dual and go home.  But we didn't want to send that message to the team, to take the easy way out.  I didn't take our own usual advice and usual path and decided to continue the bout since there was only about a minute left and the trainer indicated the injury was not severe.  Long story short, the ref started dinging us for stalling and we end up losing the heavyweight match by a point and the dual overall.  I take the responsibility for that one but so be it.

In the DCC-Davison bout, the final score was DCC 34 - Davison 23.  As the DCC coach, I would have taken the default at 125 without question, giving DCC six instead of Davison getting six (the guy who threw the elbow ended up with a pin).  Even with defaulting back to Facundo at 189, DCC would have still won.

Like any situation in life, though, easy to say what you would have done.

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12 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

In the DCC-Davison bout, the final score was DCC 34 - Davison 23.  As the DCC coach, I would have taken the default at 125 without question, giving DCC six instead of Davison getting six (the guy who threw the elbow ended up with a pin).  Even with defaulting back to Facundo at 189, DCC would have still won.

Agreed, although I feel like the fact that he did not take the default earlier is probably evidence that it wasn't his call to say the 189 couldn't continue.   Just speaking of the Facundo situation, admittedly I doubt I would do it if I knew it would cost me the dual (but depending on when that match was, maybe it was impossible to know if it would).

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And I should add this: I only came to this philosophy after I screwed up bigtime in my first year as a head coach.  We were at an open and one of our guys was losing and got unintentionally slammed and, during the time-out, said he was in great pain, couldn't move his shoulder and I thought, easy, take the default, a win, right?  Well, it was an open and bouts were on something like eight mats and our guy who was so hurt he couldn't continue magically recovered and wrestled his next bout with one of my assistants in the corner.  I was never so embarrassed in my life.  Looked horrible, sleazy, and felt even worse.  By my later approach, we would have defaulted back to the man who was winning.  After that, I told our guys once you default that's it, you're done, you don't stay in the tournament, the only exception being you accept a default if you were on the wrong end of a cheapshot.  Developed many of my coaching beliefs after I screwed something up.  Live and learn and don't make the same mistake twice.

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A shot to the back of the head is the easiest way to get a concussion.  It is the only strike you can do to yourself and knock yourself out (don’t try to smack yourself in the back of your head as hard as you can).  I taught boxing at West Point, and believe it or not, West Point is looking for ways to cut that curriculum due to concussions.  More on that later.

That is why the “push pop” is so good for wrestling...and the club.  You can LITERALLY jumble someone’s brains.  

The problem with the slam match scenario is that facundo’s head was locked up under the defenders armpit.  The defender chose to not let go in an attempt to break fall, and facundo basically spiked the top of his own head on the mat to get the TD.  I don’t disagree with the call of the referee.  Safety is the #1 reason they are out there.  

Story of ONE student and concussions in boxing class:

i taught a class where we had a freshman quarterback that was roughly 6-1 and 225.  Recruited DI athlete.  The person closest to him in skill weighed about 15 lbs less.  But he was a really tough kid.  He hung with the gifted athlete and was the only person in class that could challenge him.  At the end of some classes, we have 30 second spar sessions.  Only one rear hand cross, lead hand hook and uppercut are allowed.  The quarterback landed a clean and powerful uppercut (his favorite punch) and dropped his partner, the tough kid.  We immediately stopped the bout and he jumped up.  I told him to go to the trainers.  Anyone goes limp or responds badly to a punch goes to the trainer for concussion protocol.  He said, “I was a MLB in HS.  I know when I have a concussion.”  He went to protocol and they cleared him.  HOWEVER, West Point requires a follow up the next day.  Well...2 days later the “concussion expert” shows up in class and says, “I went to the trainers again, and I was glad, because I am NOT OK.”  He had to drop boxing class and re take it 1.5 years later.  His response to that his was so bad, he was put on a “no contact sport” profile for one year.  Needless to say, he wasn’t as aggressive as he was prior, and due to his history, we couldn’t match him up with opponents of higher skill and aggression.  That hurts your grade because skill levels have somewhat of a grade cap.  

You never know with head injuries.  There is no “quick method” to determine a concussion.  Ask any athletic trainer.  NO TRAINER WORTH THEIR SALT will clear an athlete who appears the slightest bit wobbly or out of it.  

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If Facundo pins this kid, Davison wins by 1, 29-28, but get this....If Facundo tech's him, which he had 3 more minutes to do, I believe Davison wins on 2nd criteria....team pt. taken away by the head coach.  WOW

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When  doctor says "Its up to you" following his brief discussion with that kid, isn't that tantamount to "I can't find anything wrong with you, so its up to you". In other words, had the kid continued the doc would have allowed it, an acknowledgement the doc found no reason to stop him from continuing. 

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My opinion, Facundo wasn't going to pin Rojas if Rojas did not have a concussion; very real chance for a major but Rojas is an experienced guy and knows how to hang and keep a score close.  If Rojas did have a concussion and was allowed to continue, sure, Facundo has a chance to pin but major malpractice on the part of Rojas' coaches and the doctor in charge.

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1 minute ago, Coach_J said:

My opinion, Facundo wasn't going to pin Rojas if Rojas did not have a concussion; very real chance for a major but Rojas is an experienced guy and knows how to hang and keep a score close.  If Rojas did have a concussion and was allowed to continue, sure, Facundo has a chance to pin but major malpractice on the part of Rojas' coaches and the doctor in charge.

With that takedown, he's up 7-2 with 3 minutes left.....he could have tech'd him.

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6 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

With that takedown, he's up 7-2 with 3 minutes left.....he could have tech'd him.

Certainly possible.

I guess what's being missed in all this is the aftermath.  Rojas is now getting hatemail and taking a beating on social media.  So what, you say.  Well, tough on a high school sophomore to be put in this situation, particularly when he did not make the slam call and he did not make the decision to not continue.  Also, a college assistant coach from a school that is recruiting him went out and publicly called him out for being a p-----.  The assistant didn't know the head coach was recruiting him--real bad look.  Shame on so many "adults" in this fiasco.

Rough gig for a young kid.  I hope in the future we can show we're better than this.

Edited by Coach_J

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