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MSU158

Can we officially call Michigan's choice a mistake?

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With Massa going down in the round of 12 and the team finishing tied for 33rd with a total of 9 tournament points I can't see wasting redshirts this year as being anything other than a HUGE MISTAKE! Being an MSU alumnus I have no love for UofM but cheer wholeheartedly for any wrestlers who came from the state of Michigan. This was a down year for the state as a whole and the reasoning for throwing true freshmen to the wolves eludes me.

 

Please don't turn this into a counterattack on MSU since I am as loud as anyone about how poorly they are performing. I am simply a fan of the state of Michigan as a whole and think a MAJOR MISTAKE was made.

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Very hard to compete at this level as a true frosh. The Kyle Dakes and Tayon Wares of the world are rare indeed.

I see little reason to pull guys out of redshirt, particularly if the team isn't likely to compete for a high place at the end of the year.

I hope this experience will forge these young men into AAs down the road.

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I'm fairly sure Coach McFarland will not get much support here. the boards have been calling for his head for a while.It does seem his guys have underperformed somewhat.9 pts from Massa, Yates, Apland, Grajales boyle and Bruno is pretty weak. It would be tough to claim the wrestlers were uncoachable and completely at fault.

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With 9.9 to cover 10weights, there is no dount a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I wouldn't gamble on redshirting in hopes they will perform better in the future (see McDonough, Vinson, Grajales, and Alton threads).

 

Whether Michigan needs a change, I don't know, maybe... But not redshirting was a good call, if you ask me.

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Without the same level of talent, Brendan Buckley red-shirted a lot of freshman this year at Cal Poly.

 

It would have been better for Michigan to red-shirt thos eguys and then pull them out then not having the option once they wrestled attached the first time.

 

But, not my team, not my call (and not my problem :D ).

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Dunno who you may be including in your "we" and, frankly, don't care, 'cuz the ONLY opinions that matter are those of the wrestlers in question. Knowing them and aware you haven't canvassed them on the issue, try to understand that your position on redshirting is not shared with any of us. While it is acknowledged that NO ONE, especially those closest to the program, has expected an immediate turnaround, it is also true that no one anticipated such a disappointing end to this season. The good news is there's nowhere to go from here but UP and the better news is that the team only loses senior Apland and has another excellent class of recruits (eg. Abounader, Coon, Whitford) coming in. Again, those CLOSE to the program are very pleased with its direction in an already tough conference where competition is only becoming ever more intense!

 

As an aside, I am also a long-time native who is pleased to see wrestling at ALL levels in Michigan beginning to rise to new heights not only within the State but everywhere. Why improvements in MSU's wrestling program seem to lag behind others is a concern shared by everyone but casting aspersions on the Green and White is hardly constructive...or necessary.

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Dunno who you may be including in your "we" and, frankly, don't care, 'cuz the ONLY opinions that matter are those of the wrestlers in question. Knowing them and aware you haven't canvassed them on the issue, try to understand that your position on redshirting is not shared with any of us. While it is acknowledged that NO ONE, especially those closest to the program, has expected an immediate turnaround, it is also true that no one anticipated such a disappointing end to this season. The good news is there's nowhere to go from here but UP and the better news is that the team only loses senior Apland and has another excellent class of recruits (eg. Abounader, Coon, Whitford) coming in. Again, those CLOSE to the program are very pleased with its direction in an already tough conference where competition is only becoming ever more intense!

 

As an aside, I am also a long-time native who is pleased to see wrestling at ALL levels in Michigan beginning to rise to new heights not only within the State but everywhere. Why improvements in MSU's wrestling program seem to lag behind others is a concern shared by everyone but casting aspersions on the Green and White is hardly constructive...or necessary.

 

Last time I checked this was a message board that follows college wrestling. I asked EVERYONE who reads this board if they share my opinion. I didn't vote for Obama but I still have to say "WE" elected him as President. I didn't make this about the reasoning behind the decision. I simply asked IF THE DECISION was a mistake. I think the results of this year warrant such a question. I have no issue with you having a dissenting opinion. In fact, I respect you for backing up those you know. However, there is no need to attack me for asking a question with the word "WE" in it!

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Now that hindsight is a perfect 20/20, it's easy to come in and play Monday morning quarterback. Back in the Fall, when the dual meets got off to a good start, and two of the freshmen were ranked, and all of the other wrestlers were doing well, no one was complaining about having "thrown them to the wolves."

 

If the decision had been made to trash the season by starting all the second-stringers at 133, 165, and 184 (which is what you're implying should have been done), I really don't think there would be much love on this board for that "choice" either. I've already elaborated on that in other threads.

 

I agree with wreferee that no one could have foreseen such a disappointing end to the season. Especially after so many changes made over the last two years. No where to look but up.

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You can't evaluate this for a few years. Nashon Garrett probably would have redshirted if he wasn't at an Ivy. There were probably others that redshirted who could have placed. If Massa goes on to a great career, which I suspect he will, it wasn't a mistake.

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You can't evaluate this for a few years. Nashon Garrett probably would have redshirted if he wasn't at an Ivy. There were probably others that redshirted who could have placed. If Massa goes on to a great career, which I suspect he will, it wasn't a mistake.

 

Garrett did, he was at FLWC last year not at Cornell.

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You can't evaluate this for a few years. Nashon Garrett probably would have redshirted if he wasn't at an Ivy. There were probably others that redshirted who could have placed. If Massa goes on to a great career, which I suspect he will, it wasn't a mistake.

 

Garrett did, he was at FLWC last year not at Cornell.

Yes, same as Alex Cisneros and Reabalto this year (and others).

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Can't say for Minnesota, but at Penn State, they didn't have any other option at 125 last year.

 

Conaway was smaller than Megaludis. If Pataky would have had another year (or someone close to him in ability), Mega probably would have been a redshirt.

 

With Conaway putting on some size from last year to this, they were able to redshirt Gulibon and put Conaway into the 133 slot, where he was a R12 finisher.

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Dunno who you may be including in your "we" and, frankly, don't care, 'cuz the ONLY opinions that matter are those of the wrestlers in question. Knowing them and aware you haven't canvassed them on the issue, try to understand that your position on redshirting is not shared with any of us. While it is acknowledged that NO ONE, especially those closest to the program, has expected an immediate turnaround, it is also true that no one anticipated such a disappointing end to this season. The good news is there's nowhere to go from here but UP and the better news is that the team only loses senior Apland and has another excellent class of recruits (eg. Abounader, Coon, Whitford) coming in. Again, those CLOSE to the program are very pleased with its direction in an already tough conference where competition is only becoming ever more intense!

 

As an aside, I am also a long-time native who is pleased to see wrestling at ALL levels in Michigan beginning to rise to new heights not only within the State but everywhere. Why improvements in MSU's wrestling program seem to lag behind others is a concern shared by everyone but casting aspersions on the Green and White is hardly constructive...or necessary.

 

 

Last time I checked this was a message board that follows college wrestling. I asked EVERYONE who reads this board if they share my opinion. I didn't vote for Obama but I still have to say "WE" elected him as President. I didn't make this about the reasoning behind the decision. I simply asked IF THE DECISION was a mistake. I think the results of this year warrant such a question. I have no issue with you having a dissenting opinion. In fact, I respect you for backing up those you know. However, there is no need to attack me for asking a question with the word "WE" in it!

 

 

Ahem...either re-read my first statement or perhaps it might be best to simply have someone explain it to you.

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Dunno who you may be including in your "we" and, frankly, don't care, 'cuz the ONLY opinions that matter are those of the wrestlers in question. Knowing them and aware you haven't canvassed them on the issue, try to understand that your position on redshirting is not shared with any of us. While it is acknowledged that NO ONE, especially those closest to the program, has expected an immediate turnaround, it is also true that no one anticipated such a disappointing end to this season. The good news is there's nowhere to go from here but UP and the better news is that the team only loses senior Apland and has another excellent class of recruits (eg. Abounader, Coon, Whitford) coming in. Again, those CLOSE to the program are very pleased with its direction in an already tough conference where competition is only becoming ever more intense!

 

As an aside, I am also a long-time native who is pleased to see wrestling at ALL levels in Michigan beginning to rise to new heights not only within the State but everywhere. Why improvements in MSU's wrestling program seem to lag behind others is a concern shared by everyone but casting aspersions on the Green and White is hardly constructive...or necessary.

 

 

Last time I checked this was a message board that follows college wrestling. I asked EVERYONE who reads this board if they share my opinion. I didn't vote for Obama but I still have to say "WE" elected him as President. I didn't make this about the reasoning behind the decision. I simply asked IF THE DECISION was a mistake. I think the results of this year warrant such a question. I have no issue with you having a dissenting opinion. In fact, I respect you for backing up those you know. However, there is no need to attack me for asking a question with the word "WE" in it!

 

 

Ahem...either re-read my first statement or perhaps it might be best to simply have someone explain it to you.

 

Considering what I do for a living I am pretty confident in my reading comprehension. Your first statement is contradicted by the fact you had to type 2 paragraphs after it. If you say you don't care about who "WE" is there is NO need to further elaborate by stating you know the wrestlers and NOONE other than their opinion means anything. This is your 2nd attempt to belittle me because I asked a simple question. You may need to read what I wrote a little better. Knowing the wrestlers and the teams reasons for the decisions doesn't make the decision above reproach. If I decide to buy my wife a diamond ring and she takes it 6 months later to be appraised and it ends up appraising for less NO MATTER the reason or intentions it is a MISTAKE. You can twist this into a personal thing if you like but your line of reasoning does not change the fact that the question is valid.

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It was a huge mistake, the only way it can be justified is if the kids themselves, made it clear they did not want to be redshirted. Which I would hope they could have been persuaded to change they're minds. There's a reason why Brands, Sanderson, and most others prefer to redshirt kids, it typically benefits the wrestler/student athlete. I've said it from Day 1, I hated the decision and it proved to be nothing short of a wasted year. The difficult part is going to be whether or not they can waste another year and redshirt everyone coming in and the current 3 freshmen, and make it all work with scholarship money, not sure that this is possible.

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Absent from those dissenting over Michigan’s approach to the red shirt option, is a clear understanding of the underlying values and goals emphasized and SHARED by those directing the program and student/athletes opting to matriculate here. Rather than expect anyone in this forum to bother with an assessment of all of the many factors weighed by BOTH sides in deciding to become a wrestling Wolverine, briefly citing just a few recent examples seems more apt.

 

“I won, and I’m done!” Perhaps nothing more than this pithy statement made by Ryan Bertin following his second NCAA championship victory more succinctly exemplifies the key issue: High school students who have had significant success in the sport and wish to continue to compete at the highest levels in college WITHOUT sacrificing relatively MORE IMPORTANT , longer term goals of success AFTER graduation and OFF the mats know that the academic environment as well as the wrestling facilities and coaching provided by the Michigan program WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT such priorities. Sure, there are a few former Michigan All-Americas (eg current Michigan Coaches McFarland and Bormet) and national champs (eg. Russell and Mark Churella, Sr.) that have continued competing and coaching post graduation. But there are far more such individuals who have built upon the foundations of their collegiate wrestling successes, exemplary careers and lives after leaving the mats.

 

Ryan Bertin is now a VERY successful business executive specializing in complex international real estate transactions. Mark Churella's highly-regarded insurance industry business is well-established. Luke and Tannenbaum are ensconced in continuing medical education. These and somewhat older guys like Kammen and Bahna are readily available role models for the types of student/athletes expected/expecting to reach their full potential in collegiate wrestling competition before getting on with the what remains of the MAJORITY of their lives.

 

All of the above is NOT intended to extol the virtues of one program over another but is intended to clarify some characteristics among and between programs. Priorities and approaches of other programs are at least equally laudable -- just different. Personally, though I have tremendous respect and admiration for the legacies of wrestling bastions like Oklahoma State and Iowa, my preferences are more in line with those of PSU, Minnesota and Mizzou as well as Northwestern, Cornell, and Edinboro. I’m certain with greater knowledge of other similar programs, this list could be easily expanded.

 

My overall point? Being a supporter of the world’s oldest and greatest sport is a joy and a privilege, but, as true fans, we need to be reminded sometimes that our preferences (indeed, prejudices, if you will) are not even secondary to those of the participants. To presume (rather myopically) "we" have ANY claim to "officially call" such a "mistake" is silly, disrespectful and patently absurd.

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So very few regular students, let alone student athletes, graduate in 4 years from top Universities I have grown to take the redshirt option as a given. If the student's plan is to only be at the University for 4 years than obviously a redshirt is not an option. However, I still think that once you are paying a student to perform a service, as is the case with providing scholarship money, as in any other endeavor, you want a substantial return in your investment. Measuring this investment then depends on whether or not it was already determined to be 4 years vs. 5 years. If in fact redshirting Massa, Bruno or Thomas was not an option and it does not happen throughout their time at UofM my initial question would become moot. Can we agree on that?

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So very few regular students, let alone student athletes, graduate in 4 years from top Universities I have grown to take the redshirt option as a given. If the student's plan is to only be at the University for 4 years than obviously a redshirt is not an option. However, I still think that once you are paying a student to perform a service, as is the case with providing scholarship money, as in any other endeavor, you want a substantial return in your investment. Measuring this investment then depends on whether or not it was already determined to be 4 years vs. 5 years. If in fact redshirting Massa, Bruno or Thomas was not an option and it does not happen throughout their time at UofM my initial question would become moot. Can we agree on that?

 

Actually, no. Agreement is not possible, because we quite clearly do not agree on what specific measurements should be calculated in the determination of ROI ( not RiI ) as related to this issue. Once again, it is perhaps best to cite specific examples for specific institutions.

 

First, we CAN agree that it is reasonable to expect Nebraska, Arizona State, Oklahoma State and Iowa State should be satisfied (based ENTIRELY on their accomplishments in the sport of wrestling ) with “ROI assessments” for alumni such as Jordan Burroughs, Zeke Jones, John Smith and Dan Gable or Jake Varner. But we might also agree it is reasonable to expect other institutions value at least equally highly different contributions made by notable alumni whose wrestling accomplishments might not be considered on a par with Burroughs, Jones, Smith, Gable or Varner. Among numerous other accomplished professionals and scions of business who wrestled in college, for example:

 

Princeton should be duly satisfied with contributions by wrestling alumni such as Donald Rumsfeld and Michael Novogratz.

Cornell should be duly satisfied with contributions by wrestling alumni such as Stephen Friedman (Friedman Wrestling Center and Friedman Strength and Conditioning Center)

Penn should be duly satisfied with contributions by wrestling alumni such as David Pottruck (David S. Pottruck Health and Fitness Center)

Michigan should be duly satisfied with contributions by wrestling alumni such as Ralph Bahna (Bahna Wrestling Center).

 

In short, far beyond measuring “success” or the substantiality of “ROI” solely in terms of numbers of medals or championships which arguably and understandably extend alma mater glories , some institutions value just as highly contributions having different impacts, particularly those benefiting future generations of students and athletes, alike. Note also that the pecuniary philanthropic involvements of the relatively few individuals identified above have been possible due to rewards for contributions of those individuals toward improvements in the greater society extending well beyond the wrestling communities where they attribute learning many lessons leading to their eventual success.

 

Regardless of accolades earned during three, four or more undergraduate years, the returns on an individual’s collective efforts continue well beyond graduation. With regard to what might seem to some totally unrelated but to me is directly on point with this issue: HUGE credit to Tom Brands for responding to media attacks on McD with not criticism but comments such as, “He’s hurting right now.” “ He’s been very reliable.“ and “We need to mend him.” The entirety of the Iowa wrestling community is admirable for the levels of support evidenced for their athletes. Succinctly, they are more concerned about McD’s current well-being and perhaps FUTURE rather than current ROI. With such fans one can admire and respect, I’d prefer to identify.

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...no one could have foreseen such a disappointing end to the season. \

 

When the Badgers beat them in a dual in early January there should have been some level of alarm that something isn't smelling very good in Michigan. But the "red shirt or not" die had been already cast by that time.

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