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Why such little respect for Jayson Ness?

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I keep seeing the "We all know Varner was better!" line and I have to admit it is getting old. Go back and look at the weight that Ness pretty much dominated. He handily beat Dennis 2 out 3 times and even with the comeback win in the finals he beat a guy 3 times who pretty much owned Gomez, the returning national champ. The weight class had Ness, Dennis, Gomez, Oliver, Graff, Sentes, Grey, Novachkov and Fanthorpe. There is NO comparison between 133 and 197 in 2010.

 

With that being said I could see them splitting the Hodge. Varner was great and definitely could have won the Hodge. His weight class just didn't have the firepower to put him over the top. Other than Brester and a 100% Taylor noone was big and strong enough to wrestle with Varner. His biggest strength in college WAS his strength. Simaz was such a small 197lbr that year and he took 3rd.

 

Varner's history of not opening up, even though he did his senior year, as well as the lack of depth in the weight kept him that 1 very small step behind Ness. Bear in mind I truly believe Varner is a top 5 collegiate wrestler in the last 10 years.

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Varner was better. Brester was better than Dennis, so there is your finals wins. Varner teched Simaz (a future national champ) like 21-3 or something insane like that. Ness was good but Varner was better and Varner should have won the Hodge. That's why it seems like Ness gets such little respect. If the Hodge had gone to the right person then everyone would have nothing but love for Jayson Ness. I would expect Minnesota fans to blindly cheer for their guy and think Ness deserved it, I'd be the same for Iowa, but everyone else who watched that year or knows anything about wrestling knows Varner was the Hodge winner. Therefore it seems Ness doesn't get his due. It's sad really.

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Varner was better. Brester was better than Dennis, so there is your finals wins. Varner teched Simaz (a future national champ) like 21-3 or something insane like that. Ness was good but Varner was better and Varner should have won the Hodge. That's why it seems like Ness gets such little respect. If the Hodge had gone to the right person then everyone would have nothing but love for Jayson Ness. I would expect Minnesota fans to blindly cheer for their guy and think Ness deserved it, I'd be the same for Iowa, but everyone else who watched that year or knows anything about wrestling knows Varner was the Hodge winner. Therefore it seems Ness doesn't get his due. It's sad really.

 

Actually Gonzo, Ness is the Hodge was the winner. What's really sad is your explanation and whining above.

 

Your opinion that Varner was better was just that an opinion.

 

Ness gets all the respect in the world from me and so does Varner. Both are great wrestlers and class acts. We are lucky to have them both. The right person for that year won the Hodge and the best wrestler of this year in his weight class was Varner and he won the Gold.

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Whining!? I don't care who won. I'm not a Minnesota guy or an Iowa St. guy., I just watch wrestling and Ness being the winner doesn't make him the right winner. Varner was the best guy. If you think me saying Varner was better than Ness is my opinion only and you actually think Ness was better then we have nothing more to say to one another. Call me a whiner or what ever name you want, I could care less, your opinion means nothing to me.

 

 

PS-The question was why so little respect for Jayson Ness and I answered it. I told you exactly why Ness gets so little respect. I said I think it's sad he does get such little respect, but due to the circumstance it will probably always be this way.

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I am surprised that anyone says Jayson Ness doesn't get respect. I can't think of anyone who didn't respect him as a wrestler as he always seemed like a great person and wrestler, the kind any program wants.

 

I think he gets due credit and respect, it's just Varner is a hot topic right now and he should be, he just won gold. Ness is two years out of college and now it's summer in an Olympic year, and it's also dead time of year.

 

I don't think anyone is taking anything away from Ness at all, he was a great one and one of the best that time. Varner is a gold medalist. They are both winners.

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If the Hodge had gone to the right person then everyone would have nothing but love for Jayson Ness.

 

 

So people jump on Ness because someone else presented him with an award? Are you saying he should have refused the award?

 

This whole saga is just nauseating...

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Varner was better. Brester was better than Dennis, so there is your finals wins. Varner teched Simaz (a future national champ) like 21-3 or something insane like that. Ness was good but Varner was better and Varner should have won the Hodge. That's why it seems like Ness gets such little respect. If the Hodge had gone to the right person then everyone would have nothing but love for Jayson Ness. I would expect Minnesota fans to blindly cheer for their guy and think Ness deserved it, I'd be the same for Iowa, but everyone else who watched that year or knows anything about wrestling knows Varner was the Hodge winner. Therefore it seems Ness doesn't get his due. It's sad really.

 

I agree that as a whole Varner was a better collegiate wrestler. However, the argument is about the HODGE which is given to the best PERFORMANCE for that SEASON. Even in his senior season Varner had moments equivalent to watching paint dry. That killed him. Ness was exciting and dominant in a MUCH deeper weight class. I disagree that Brester is better than Dennis. Dennis was owning a defending national champ. I also, no disrespect to Simaz, think he was way undersized that year and showed it when he wrestled Varner.

 

In looking objectively at the Hodge, what stat did Varner beat him in? Pins, techs? majors? wins? and even more importantly quality wins? I just don't see the argument.

 

Also, I know quite a bit about wrestling. Very few follow it more closely. I am also not affiliated with either school. AND I don't think Varner deserved the Hodge over Ness.

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Pinnum-Of course he shouldn't have refused the award. The question was why Ness gets little respect. I gave an honest answer. I cheer for Iowa, I could give a s**t who won the award between Minnesota and Iowa St. I was just answering a question.

 

Headache-The OW being awarded to Ness further fuels the fire.

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Ness deserved the Hodge. My bitch was giving Ness the OW at the 2010 NCAA tournament. There were 4-6 wrestlers who had better tournaments than Ness.

 

Interesting.....

 

The 9 other champs were McD, Dake, Metcalf, O'Conner, Howe, Borschell, Askren, Varner and Zabriskie.

 

McD impressive for a freshman but didn't exactly have a tough road.

Dake could make a case but had the razor thin win against Humphrey.

Metcalf had the thin win against Palmer.

O'Conner looked really good and I could see him over Ness but wasn't exactly a tough road.

Howe was VERY dominant but didn't wrestle a seed above #6.

Borschell was very good but was VERY fortunate to get by Henrich.

Askren had a couple close matches but won a brutal weight. I could see him over Ness.

Varner's scores looked similar to Ness but with, in my opinion, lesser quality competition.

Zabriskie didn't do anything to stand out from the normal heavyweight close scores.

 

I see maybe 2 who had a better tournament and none were to the point where it was DISTINCT.

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The award isn't given for the finals performance. That's not even a criteria.

 

The trophy is awarded based on seven criteria1. Record 2. Number of pins 3. Dominance 4. Past credentials 5. Quality of competition 6. Sportsmanship/citizenship 7. Heart

 

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/n ... rophy.aspx

 

Ness edged out Iowa State's Jake Varner and Iowa's Jay Borschel, champs at 197 and 174 respectively. Each also capped off undefeated seasons, but Ness earned the honor on the strength of his number of pins. Finishing with one of the best seasons in school history, Ness claimed 19 of his victory's by fall, nearly doubling Varner and Borschel.

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I disagree, I don't' see anyone disrespecting Ness. From all accounts a very nice guy and a very good college wrestler. The problem is he's being compared to an Olympic gold medalist and possibly the best wrestler in the world. Of course Ness is going to pale in comparison.

 

The biggest issue I've seen brought up on these boards is how the Hodge committee picks and chooses what criteria is most important from year to year, based on who they want to give the award to. One year the huge pin total doesn't matter, (Oliver/Burroughs) another year the winning record doesn't seem to matter, (Metcalf winning over an undefeated national champion in spite of being pinned earlier in the season) the handicap wrestler tying with Cael Sanderson, in spite of losing 4 times that year, etc. And that's why so many have lost faith in the award and simply view it as a popularity contest.

 

I think the other issue is so many fans have seen Varner snubbed for award year after year while the current golden boy is selected, only to have Varner continually out perform each and every one of these individuals. Finally the fans have had enough and are voicing their opinions. It took a long time but finally Varner has some supporters. Oh and that Olympic Gold Medal, he's got that too. Somehow I doubt he cares very much about popularity contests at this point. But Ness, he gets all the credit he deserves for what he's accomplished and for being a nice guy. At least that's my impression, I don't know the kid.

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Cletus, It's nice you think Ness is nice guy and a "good" college wrestler, but the fact is that he was a clear winner of the Hodge, and I don't even see it quite as close as most people do. Lets look at the criteria....

 

1. Wins...even (31 each I think)

2. Pins...19-10, not even close for Ness.

3. Dominance....arguable, but see above

4. Past credentials....2 NCAA titles is a good arguement, but Ness was 148-15 with 73 pins and

NCAA finishes of 5-2-3-1. I'm not aware of Varner's career record but I will concede the 4th criteria if he has a better winning percentage.

5. Quality of competition....Minnesota wrestles the toughest schedule in the country, advantage Ness.

6. Sportsmanship...even, both great guys.

7. Heart, an intangable that can't really be argued either way, obviously both very big here.

 

Jake Varner's gold medal was huge for the US, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this award 2.5 years ago. If this was such a big deal why wait until no to bring it up.

 

The Hodge is wrestlings equivalent to the Heisman. Do you really think someone like Peyton Manning who didn't win a Heisman but went on to greater success at the next level is really bitching about guys like Ricky Williams and Ryan Leaf overshadowing him for college awards. You too should get past this.

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Rodent-The only thing I would correct is people didn't wait until now to bring it up, it's been a topic of conversation and debate for the last 2.5 years. Sometimes I feel like you Minne guys don't know that the award can't be taken away from Ness. It's like you're fighting so hard. One thing that guy said earlier that is true, Ness keeps his Hodge, Varner keeps his Gold.

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Cletus, It's nice you think Ness is nice guy and a "good" college wrestler, but the fact is that he was a clear winner of the Hodge, and I don't even see it quite as close as most people do. Lets look at the criteria....

 

1. Wins...even (31 each I think)

2. Pins...19-10, not even close for Ness.

3. Dominance....arguable, but see above

4. Past credentials....2 NCAA titles is a good arguement, but Ness was 148-15 with 73 pins and

NCAA finishes of 5-2-3-1. I'm not aware of Varner's career record but I will concede the 4th criteria if he has a better winning percentage.

5. Quality of competition....Minnesota wrestles the toughest schedule in the country, advantage Ness.

6. Sportsmanship...even, both great guys.

7. Heart, an intangable that can't really be argued either way, obviously both very big here.

 

Jake Varner's gold medal was huge for the US, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this award 2.5 years ago. If this was such a big deal why wait until no to bring it up.

 

The Hodge is wrestlings equivalent to the Heisman. Do you really think someone like Peyton Manning who didn't win a Heisman but went on to greater success at the next level is really bitching about guys like Ricky Williams and Ryan Leaf overshadowing him for college awards. You too should get past this.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you think I should get over. We're having a discussion about Ness not getting respect and I added that I think he does get respect rather it's that Varner's fans, (recent and long time) are making their case for Varner, just as you just did for Ness and it's taken as disrespect by Minnie fans and select others who hate Jake Varner.

 

If it's the Hodge award you think I should get over, I was over that popularity contest long ago. It makes no difference to me who they give it to, but if we're going to discuss it, I'm certainly entitled to voice my opinion on the matter, just as you and everyone else has.

 

I don't believe that Jake Varner's Olympic Gold Medal should have anything to do with the Hodge award, quite frankly the Hodge does not even begin to compare with the honor and prestige that an Olympic medal has, let alone one of the gold variety. Does anyone other than those of us on this board even know Jayson Ness won the Hodge? Millions upon Millions know Jake Varner won the Olympic Gold medal, they watched him do it and it didnt' require a panel of people handing it to him, he won it outright on the mat.

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I just started reading all this and I really don't get what the argument is. It seems that some people are saying Varner should've won the Hodge in 2010 just because the think he was the "better" wrestler back then. And the evidence is his Olympic gold in 2012? They were both undefeated and Ness had almost twice as many pins. Based on the Hodge criteria, that seems pretty cut and dry to me.

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I just started reading all this and I really don't get what the argument is. It seems that some people are saying Varner should've won the Hodge in 2010 just because the think he was the "better" wrestler back then. And the evidence is his Olympic gold in 2012? They were both undefeated and Ness had almost twice as many pins. Based on the Hodge criteria, that seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

 

And that's where the problem arises. If the criteria was most pins wins, one would have expected Oliver to win over Burroughs a couple of years back but he didn't, the wrestler with better past credentials won. Or another example would be when Cael shared the award with the division 3 wrestler that was missing limbs. If most falls gets the award, there's no way in hell Cael should have had to share the award. Then there's the case of a wrestler pinned in the center of the mat winning over an undefeated national champion just a handful of years ago. I'm with you, one would think that the criteria should be pretty easy to follow and there should be little to any controversy once every thing is tallied up. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Just look up some results, (don't take my examples as accurate) check the stats and see for yourself how one year you expect one guy to win by virtue of precedent set, only to have the criteria switched around specifically for that situation and someone else gets it. And that's where the problem lies. The fact that Varner is/was the better wrestler has nothing to do with it.

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Rodent-The only thing I would correct is people didn't wait until now to bring it up, it's been a topic of conversation and debate for the last 2.5 years. Sometimes I feel like you Minne guys don't know that the award can't be taken away from Ness. It's like you're fighting so hard. One thing that guy said earlier that is true, Ness keeps his Hodge, Varner keeps his Gold.

 

 

I know the issue has been brought up before, but it has certainly heated up again since the olympics, as if the gold medal proves who had the better folkstyle season back in 2010.

 

Ness had the better season in 2010. As far as collegiate career, I honestly don't know Varner's career record was. I suspect it may have been slightly better then Ness' 148-15 (73 pins) 5-2-3-1 NCAA finishes, but I doubt if he blew him away in this criteria either.

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Rodent-The only thing I would correct is people didn't wait until now to bring it up, it's been a topic of conversation and debate for the last 2.5 years. Sometimes I feel like you Minne guys don't know that the award can't be taken away from Ness. It's like you're fighting so hard. One thing that guy said earlier that is true, Ness keeps his Hodge, Varner keeps his Gold.

 

 

I know the issue has been brought up before, but it has certainly heated up again since the olympics, as if the gold medal proves who had the better folkstyle season back in 2010.

 

Ness had the better season in 2010. As far as collegiate career, I honestly don't know Varner's career record was. I suspect it may have been slightly better then Ness' 148-15 (73 pins) 5-2-3-1 NCAA finishes, but I doubt if he blew him away in this criteria either.

 

Varner finished 121-10 going 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st. His second 2nd was decided by a couple of seconds of riding time in Multiple OTs. I still remember the ref blowing the whistle with Varner on his feet and Pucillo behind him essentially ending his chance to win. However, he lost the chess match strategy he used alot that year to a guy who was even harder to ride.

 

As far as careers as a whole goes you have to give the edge to Varner. 4 time finalist. Not too many of those.

As I have stated previously, I would not argue that Ness had a better career. I simply believe his senior year was more impressive than Varner's.

 

Also, the use of respect in my title is directed more at the flippant way Ness is dismissed by those who have an agenda (Metcalf Haters) against WIN and the Hodge. Ness is the WRONG example to use since he fit the criteria to a tee. Complain about what doesn't fit your perceptions and don't use a case that does to point out those that don't.

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