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russelscout

Out of bounds stalling

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Who saw the examples on FRL this morning of the Griffen Parriot vs Brayton Lee stall on the edge call and then the lack of a call against Kolodzik in his match with Hunter Richard. I have seen enough honestly. Refs can not, have not, and will not ever make this call correctly. Its time for the push out.

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27 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Who saw the examples on FRL this morning of the Griffen Parriot vs Brayton Lee stall on the edge call and then the lack of a call against Kolodzik in his match with Hunter Richard. I have seen enough honestly. Refs can not, have not, and will not ever make this call correctly. Its time for the push out.

Was it the same ref? Its impossible for two people to officate a match exactly the same.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

If I were you, I would just go watch it. Pretty egregious IMO.

I have and i get that, but the fact still remains the ONLY chance of seeing officiating called cosistently across the board is if there it literally only 1 ref who officiates every single match. Maybe some big time tech company can create a virtual ref that officiates all matches eliminating the need for human refs and calls all matches consistently.  

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

I have and i get that, but the fact still remains the ONLY chance of seeing officiating called cosistently across the board is if there it literally only 1 ref who officiates every single match. Maybe some big time tech company can create a virtual ref that officiates all matches eliminating the need for human refs and calls all matches consistently.  

You're right, but you can decrease the varience by creating a rule system that doesn't allow such a variety of interpretations. This idea that it can never be perfect should not be a reason to never strive to do better. 

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I have and i get that, but the fact still remains the ONLY chance of seeing officiating called cosistently across the board is if there it literally only 1 ref who officiates every single match. Maybe some big time tech company can create a virtual ref that officiates all matches eliminating the need for human refs and calls all matches consistently.  

You would hope not, but even the same ref could still make inconsistent calls, if they have a set rule and criteria and not a choice of an "action" call, if the rule is enforced, no subjectivity.  They still may get "wrong" calls instead of "inconsistent", but there are less wrong calls when there is a hard set rule based on objectivity.  I'd rather see a wrong call that can be fixed, then inconsistent calls that no one can question or fix.

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6 minutes ago, russelscout said:

You're right, but you can decrease the varience by creating a rule system that doesn't allow such a variety of interpretations. This idea that it can never be perfect should not be a reason to never strive to do better. 

How? Stalling is by definition subjective. To make it too objective would either mean so many specific rules that no human other than Dr Reed on Criminal Minds could remember them all or so few that they could easily be gamed.

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there is enough grumbling from people that matter now... real live athletes and coaches and not just forum nerds... the push out is gonna happen sooner than later... and it will be glorious... our kids will actually be forced to learn how to wrestle and not just back out of bounds...

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12 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I have and i get that, but the fact still remains the ONLY chance of seeing officiating called cosistently across the board is if there it literally only 1 ref who officiates every single match. Maybe some big time tech company can create a virtual ref that officiates all matches eliminating the need for human refs and calls all matches consistently.  

Bring back Billy Sheridan! He reffed every bout at 1928 NCAAs

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Just now, gimpeltf said:

How? Stalling is by definition subjective. To make it too objective would either mean so many specific rules that no human other than Dr Reed on Criminal Minds could remember them all or so few that they could easily be gamed.

Honestly, what? One clear cut rule, a push out, takes away almost all of the subjectivity in the matches I am talking about. 

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17 minutes ago, ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying said:

Surely this, the 1,000th thread about the push out, will be the one that changes anyone's mind. 

This continues to come up all the time because almost weekly you can see a match where there is an issue regarding this rule. 

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it may take care of edge stalling

but keeping butt to center and doing nothing else is still stalling

so it wont take the subjectivity out of stalling in other areas of the match... 

I like edge wrestling.. and yes people get away with stalling.. but people get away with stalling in all phases of wrestling

its just one more area where people like to freelance.

no different than holding an arm back.. or wrestling on a knee

 

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posted this on another thread...

"

one time when i was coaching one of my wrestlers was superior to his opponent, but the opponent was crafty and found ways in the first and second period to keep the match close.

not engaging, not wrestling... playing defense etc

after about the 3rd match like this i talked to the official in the first period

say, this guy isn't engaging and is just playing cagey so that he can counter us and is stalling, so we can't score adn keep the match close

he said no he isn't.

well i said, its pretty obvious

and after we get a lead and do the same thing in the third period you are going to call us for stalling for doing the same exact thing

he just looked at me and smiled."

 

the offending wrestler didn't really play the edge and didn't go out very often.. but it was still stalling... 

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Just now, russelscout said:

sure about that? scroll back up and see where you quoted me.

Sorry- looked at the wrong one. But you're proving my point. If you only added a push out and eliminated other subjective stalling the wrestlers would easily game it. The matches you mention would have been wrestled differently. They could have worked to stall on the mat rather than at the edge and that would have to be called subjectively or not at all.

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1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

Sorry- looked at the wrong one. But you're proving my point. If you only added a push out and eliminated other subjective stalling the wrestlers would easily game it. The matches you mention would have been wrestled differently. They could have worked to stall on the mat rather than at the edge and that would have to be called subjectively or not at all.

We have plenty of examples of what a push out rule looks like. All our women have this as a rule. The rest of the world has this as a rule. I find it hard to believe it can be gamed when the Russians haven't even come up with a way to do it yet. 

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there is no logical reason to argue against a push out rule... absolutely none...

the only argument against it is "we aint never done that before... and we aint doing it now!!!!"

and the above is just typical meathead thought patterns... we should do everything to get rid of those type of low rent attitudes push out or no...

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

We have plenty of examples of what a push out rule looks like. All our women have this as a rule. The rest of the world has this as a rule. I find it hard to believe it can be gamed when the Russians haven't even come up with a way to do it yet. 

I never said I was opposed to a push out rule. I believe it's worked much better internationally than everyone initially thought. Your statements suggested getting rid of variance by changing the rule structure. Push outs help in one area but if you got rid of all variance you would have to make the rules either so complicated or so simple that it would cause other problems as I said before.

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5 minutes ago, GockeS said:

stalling still occurs, pushout or no pushout

it wont get rid of it

and it still wont be called consistently

i thought that was the problem

It won't fix all stalling but it will fix this one situation on the edge. Why wouldn't we do that?

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2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I never said I was opposed to a push out rule. I believe it's worked much better internationally than everyone initially thought. Your statements suggested getting rid of variance by changing the rule structure. Push outs help in one area but if you got rid of all variance you would have to make the rules either so complicated or so simple that it would cause other problems as I said before.

I am strictly talking about the call on the edge. Yes, pushouts only help in this one way, but why wouldn't we just do this then? 

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