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russelscout

Out of bounds stalling

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8 minutes ago, silverback said:

The pushout is still subjective.  The official still determines if there was action or not.  Subjective.  

 

Less subjective > more subjective. There is a problem with the current rule set. Push out is the best way to fix it, unless you have a better solution?

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13 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am strictly talking about the call on the edge. Yes, pushouts only help in this one way, but why wouldn't we just do this then? 

The problem (in answering your question here as to why wouldn't we) is in perception of a large portion of the wrestling populace. People still say internationally that bouts are decided solely by that. I'm sure some are but in general even those are ones that would have been stall-fests otherwise. So even though it's probably a good thing too many would oppose on general principles.

Edited by gimpeltf

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1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

The problem (in answering your question here as to why wouldn't we) is in perception of a large portion of the wrestling populace. People still say internationally that bouts are decided solely by that. I'm sure some are but in general even those are ones that would have been stall-fests otherwise. So even though it's probably a good thing too many would oppose on general principles.

And what do those same fans think about a match like Parriot and Lee where Parriot is digging for an under, hand fighting hard, and they go out of bounds only for Parriot to get hit with a stall call? What do our principled fans think of that?

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13 minutes ago, silverback said:

The pushout is still subjective.  The official still determines if there was action or not.  Subjective.  

A true pushout rule isn't very subjective, if at all. Who's foot was out first? Also, a more proper terminology might be step out.

One problem with a pushout in folkstyle that I didn't think of in previous post is in trying to work it in with current college out of bounds rules. In international you would be out as soon as someone steps out. In collegiate you aren't out until both are completely out. So which guy would be the cause? If the first guy out was being pushed without extended arms on the part of the pusher and the pusher recognizes this and then intentionally steps out isn't he the actual problem? Possibly all that would be needed here is to limit the out of bounds from standing/neutral to more along the lines of international allowing for continuous motion leading to a score one way or the other.

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7 minutes ago, russelscout said:

And what do those same fans think about a match like Parriot and Lee where Parriot is digging for an under, hand fighting hard, and they go out of bounds only for Parriot to get hit with a stall call? What do our principled fans think of that?

Again, I was answering your question of why wouldn't we do it. I was telling you why some wouldn't do it not why I wouldn't do it.

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6 minutes ago, silverback said:

Still subjective!  Tell me exactly what percentage it's less subjective.  Point is, it's still subjective.  Your argument is moot.  Over! 

I have said several times that it still subjective to a degree. What is moot is your understanding of what is being discussed so start back over and read through the thread please. 

Edited by russelscout

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Again, I was answering your question of why wouldn't we do it. I was telling you why some wouldn't do it not why I wouldn't do it.

I understand that. I was responding with the hypothetical objectors in mind.

Edited by russelscout

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26 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I am strictly talking about the call on the edge. Yes, pushouts only help in this one way, but why wouldn't we just do this then? 

push out will help all manners of stalling... if you can't just evade straight back then you have to learn how to wrestle...

now, it won't help the meathead "fans" who scream STALLING!!!! the moment the color they root for falls behind in a match... eugenics might be the only way to really fix that...

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17 minutes ago, Force118 said:

Would a push-out many of you are advocating for only apply to neutral? Awful easy to push a guy out of bounds on a standup and his back is to you. 

Think about this for am moment.  Wrestler A is on top, Wrestler B on bottom, whistle blows to start the action, Wrestler B comes to his feet. Wrestler A is holding on, but the come close to the edge....and Wrestler A lets go of Wrestler B, giving up the escape, and then drives him out of bounds, getting a 1-point push-out...and thus negating the escape point. 

As someone mentioned, no matter how well you write the rule, someone will find a way to game it to their advantage. 

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There isn't a 100% absolute here.  Any system can lead to imperfect results.  

Generally though, watching free and folk makes me believe:

1. The push out rule is basically objective and relatively uniformly applied; whereas the folkstyle OOB is very subjective by nature and in practice is inconsistently and frustratingly applied, consequentially so.

2.  In comparison to freestyle before the pushout rule and in comparison to folk, modern freestyle has more action, which seems to be driven largely by the pushout rule.  

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I think the push out could work, but I'd like to see a detailed explanation of how it would be implemented before getting on board. Few things that would need to be clearly addressed just off the top:

- Push out = standard point, or stall?
- If the latter, could you stall someone out with push outs?
- Treatment of grounded opponents--no point, restart in middle?
- Scramble situations
- Continuation on the edge
- Protocol after escapes--immediate restart in center, or could the ref play an advantage?
- Can you score a push out from bottom before securing an escape?

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

It won't fix all stalling but it will fix this one situation on the edge. Why wouldn't we do that?

b/c edge wrestling is exciting

freestyle is not exciting in that manner, b/c you are just pushing a guy out of bounds when you get close

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1 minute ago, DocBZ said:

Top bottom stalling calls are just as bad...

there is nothing worse than watching "wrestlers" run to the edge to avoid wrestling...

and while i agree top and bottom stalling is awful, that is just the nature of top and bottom...

lay on someone for a minute and get a point... yeah...

lay on the mat, turtle up and avoid giving up 4... yeah...

ride time and over valuing a cheap tilt promotes that behavior... but, that is not near as awful as just backing straight up to avoid wrestling...

push out will start to slowly devalue laying on the mat... that should keep everyone happy...

 

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8 minutes ago, russelscout said:

There is exciting action on the edge in freestyle all the time.

yeah guys trying to push other guys out and other guys fleeing the edge...

its the same thing... only backward...

but is it really wrestling?

like i have asked before... when did pushing a guy out with a single leg become a technique

and to avoid it, all i have to do is go down to my knees and get pushed out that way... so it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other 

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