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shieldofpistis

Do you consider truly the champion

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Hey guys.  I was wondering something.  Would you consider the champions of divisions where there are clearly better guys who decided to take off a year, or get banned, truly the champions?

For instance,  the defending 1st and 2nd place finishers at 133 aren't competing this year.  If Gross wins, would he truly be the champion in your eyes?  Or a better example is 141.  Yianni is clearly the class of that divsion.  I don't think anyone thinks Pletcher can defeat Yianni.  But Yianni is taking a redshirt year.  Would you consider Pletcher the true champion?  And Valencia is by far the best guy in his division. It's not even close.  Doesn't make a title in these divisions feel a little empty if they didn't have to beat the best? 

Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. 

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The champ is the champ. Period. These guys can’t control who does and who doesn’t wrestle an at what weight. By that logic how many guys should have their NCAA titles called into question because Pico and Cejudo weren’t in the mix?

Also Yianni isn’t unbeatable in folkstyle. He’s lost to Eiererman and had a lot of very close matches with guys who are definitely comparable to Lee and Pletcher. And while Zahid was the runaway favorite this year at 184 a part of that was because the weight was really thin. Zahid got beat twice last season (by 2 different guys). If he had stayed down at 174 this year it’d be a 3 horse race...4 horse race if Mekhi was wrestling NCAA’s and up at 174 (where they say he’ll be when he’s back).

Edited by MDogg

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7 minutes ago, MDogg said:

The champ is the champ. Period. These guys can’t control who does and who doesn’t wrestle an at what weight. By that logic how many guys should have their NCAA titles called into question because Pico and Cejudo weren’t in the mix?

Also Yianni isn’t unbeatable in folkstyle. He’s lost to Eiererman and had a lot of very close matches with guys who are definitely comparable to Lee and Pletcher. And Zahid was the runaway favorite this year at 184 a part of that was because the weight class was really thin. Zahid got beat twice last season (by 2 different guys). If he had stayed down at 174 this year it’d be a 3 horse race...4 horse race if Mekhi was wrestling NCAA’s and up at 174 (where they say he’ll be when he’s back).

Pretty much my sentiment exactly.  

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6 minutes ago, MDogg said:

The champ is the champ. Period. These guys can’t control who does and who doesn’t wrestle an at what weight. By that logic how many guys should have their NCAA titles called into question because Pico and Cejudo weren’t in the mix?

Also Yianni isn’t unbeatable in folkstyle. He’s lost to Eiererman and had a lot of very close matches with guys who are definitely comparable to Lee and Pletcher. And Zahid was the runaway favorite this year at 184 a part of that was because the weight class was really thin. Zahid got beat twice last season (by 2 different guys). If he had stayed down at 174 this year it’d be a 3 horse race...4 horse race if Mekhi was wrestling NCAA’s and up at 174 (where they say he’ll be when he’s back).

Agree with this, the champ is the champ, numerous variables go into winning the title and it doesn’t matter who is redshirting or not or not competing for whatever reason.  For instance, if one of those guys not competing were competing and before the tournament suffered an injury, or got in trouble and couldn’t compete, that doesn’t mean the wrestler who wins wasn’t the champ because “if that guy hadn’t been injured, or gotten suspended.” The guy who didn’t make decisions or didn’t have the unfortunate season ending injury, showed up that day no matter who he was wrestling, and won. Survived not feeling well the first round after a tough cut, win a tough semifinal even though they were seeded 4th and beat the number 1, and in the finals had terrible calls against him from the officials, but still won the tournament.  Yeah... that guys the champ.

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26 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Hey guys.  I was wondering something.  Would you consider the champions of divisions where there are clearly better guys who decided to take off a year, or get banned, truly the champions?

For instance,  the defending 1st and 2nd place finishers at 133 aren't competing this year.  If Gross wins, would he truly be the champion in your eyes?  Or a better example is 141.  Yianni is clearly the class of that divsion.  I don't think anyone thinks Pletcher can defeat Yianni.  But Yianni is taking a redshirt year.  Would you consider Pletcher the true champion?  And Valencia is by far the best guy in his division. It's not even close.  Doesn't make a title in these divisions feel a little empty if they didn't have to beat the best? 

Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. 

In your example, last year’s 133 champ didn’t have to wrestle the 2018 champ, who was out with injury.  So is Nicky Pushups truly the 133 champ?  And if Gross wins, he will be the true champ because he was the 2018 champ and the 2019 champ truly wasn’t the champ.   So Gross would truly truly be the champ.

Also,, pay your debts.

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5 minutes ago, jchapman said:

In your example, last year’s 133 champ didn’t have to wrestle the 2018 champ, who was out with injury.  So is Nicky Pushups truly the 133 champ?  And if Gross wins, he will be the true champ because he was the 2018 champ and the 2019 champ truly wasn’t the champ.   So Gross would truly truly be the champ.

Also,, pay your debts.

Hahaha...do people think this is one of Cinabun’s burner accounts?

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34 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Hey guys.  I was wondering something.  Would you consider the champions of divisions where there are clearly better guys who decided to take off a year, or get banned, truly the champions?

For instance,  the defending 1st and 2nd place finishers at 133 aren't competing this year.  If Gross wins, would he truly be the champion in your eyes?  Or a better example is 141.  Yianni is clearly the class of that divsion.  I don't think anyone thinks Pletcher can defeat Yianni.  But Yianni is taking a redshirt year.  Would you consider Pletcher the true champion?  And Valencia is by far the best guy in his division. It's not even close.  Doesn't make a title in these divisions feel a little empty if they didn't have to beat the best? 

Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. 

Actually, the top 3 at 133 from 2019 are taking ORS, but I still view 133 as one of the top 2020 weights.  The winner will absolutely be a credible champion, IMO.

I think it's largely the same at the other weights as well.

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30 minutes ago, jchapman said:

In your example, last year’s 133 champ didn’t have to wrestle the 2018 champ, who was out with injury.  So is Nicky Pushups truly the 133 champ?  And if Gross wins, he will be the true champ because he was the 2018 champ and the 2019 champ truly wasn’t the champ.   So Gross would truly truly be the champ.

Also,, pay your debts.

My debts are paid peckerhead 

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

Hey guys.  I was wondering something.  Would you consider the champions of divisions where there are clearly better guys who decided to take off a year, or get banned, truly the champions?

For instance,  the defending 1st and 2nd place finishers at 133 aren't competing this year.  If Gross wins, would he truly be the champion in your eyes?  Or a better example is 141.  Yianni is clearly the class of that divsion.  I don't think anyone thinks Pletcher can defeat Yianni.  But Yianni is taking a redshirt year.  Would you consider Pletcher the true champion?  And Valencia is by far the best guy in his division. It's not even close.  Doesn't make a title in these divisions feel a little empty if they didn't have to beat the best? 

Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. 

Couldn't we argue that last years 133lbers weren't worthy since Gross was off?

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

Hey guys.  I was wondering something.  Would you consider the champions of divisions where there are clearly better guys who decided to take off a year, or get banned, truly the champions?

For instance,  the defending 1st and 2nd place finishers at 133 aren't competing this year.  If Gross wins, would he truly be the champion in your eyes?  Or a better example is 141.  Yianni is clearly the class of that divsion.  I don't think anyone thinks Pletcher can defeat Yianni.  But Yianni is taking a redshirt year.  Would you consider Pletcher the true champion?  And Valencia is by far the best guy in his division. It's not even close.  Doesn't make a title in these divisions feel a little empty if they didn't have to beat the best? 

Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. 

You’re either looking at it the wrong way, or trying real....real hard to lead the board in threads started. 
 

I for one am not sure which....or why. 

Edited by Lurker

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8 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Could we? That's what I'm aaking

The answer is no. And who's to say the champ that takes a year off would still be Champ had he not. Remember Andrew Howe was considered the top 174lber the year he redshirted only to come back and lose to the Chris Perry who won during Howe's shirt season. Winning it one year does not mean you automatically the champ the next year where you sit out.

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I thought this thread was going to go in a different direction like when the perceived best wrestler in the weight ends up losing during the tournament like Gilman in 2017, Myles Martin in 2019, Trenge in 2005 etc..l

It did go in that direction...Gilman, Martin, and Trenge weren’t the best guy that go ‘round

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5 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I thought this thread was going to go in a different direction like when the perceived best wrestler in the weight ends up losing during the tournament like Gilman in 2017, Myles Martin in 2019, Trenge in 2005 etc..l

I still feel sorry for myles

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1 minute ago, Schuteandscore said:

It did go in that direction...Gilman, Martin, and Trenge weren’t the best guy that go ‘round

Well the biggest part of being "the champ" is showing up and getting it done "when it counts." Seabass has the right idea that it's nice to win the B1G tourney but in the end it means very little when it comes to the big dance. If the "best" guys sit out for whatever reason, they give up the claim to being the best.

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