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russelscout

Why not award by seed?

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9 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

No tournament has ever come remotely close to finishing exactly to seed, why assume this one would? It is not additive in any way. It just gives a new name to seed.

It's not p perfect response but at least dominant guys like lee and enzo would be rewardes

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Perhaps you can't declare someone a national champion without the tournament, but I don't see why you can't award all-american status based on seeds.

In most collegiate sports (football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, etc), due to their team nature, all-american status is given by coaches vote, media votes, etc. Even to the affect of designating first team all-american, second team and so on. This is effectively what the seeding committee did for wrestling.

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Perhaps you can't declare someone a national champion without the tournament, but I don't see why you can't award all-american status based on seeds.
In most collegiate sports (football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, etc), due to their team nature, all-american status is given by coaches vote, media votes, etc. Even to the affect of designating first team all-american, second team and so on. This is effectively what the seeding committee did for wrestling.

I like the idea of awarding All American status based on seed, but not the national title individually or team wise. You have to wrestle the tournament and there are plenty of examples of the number 1 seed losing to a much lower seed.

I believe they earned the seed and the guys in the 9-33 seed range you’d have to feel for because they didn’t get the chance to make that upset.


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1 minute ago, jdowntown said:

Perhaps you can't declare someone a national champion without the tournament, but I don't see why you can't award all-american status based on seeds.

In most collegiate sports (football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, etc), due to their team nature, all-american status is given by coaches vote, media votes, etc. Even to the affect of designating first team all-american, second team and so on. This is effectively what the seeding committee did for wrestling.

The seeding committee sat down with a goal of identifying the top wrestlers in the country in each weight class based on who earned which position based upon their performance during the regular season. One could argue that this is even more legit than how football and basketball All-Americans are determined, which is by the media. I see this as the equivalent of the "coaches poll" in other sports. 

College football awarded a national champion without a tournament for 100+ years. I can see how you can argue that we should not award individual national championships, but Iowa is as deserving of the team title as any of these football programs. 

 

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4 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

The seeding committee sat down with a goal of identifying the top wrestlers in the country in each weight class based on who earned which position based upon their performance during the regular season. One could argue that this is even more legit than how football and basketball All-Americans are determined, which is by the media. I see this as the equivalent of the "coaches poll" in other sports. 

College football awarded a national champion without a tournament for 100+ years. I can see how you can argue that we should not award individual national championships, but Iowa is as deserving of the team title as any of these football programs. 

 

Because our whole shtick is that we win those championships on the mat, they are not voted on.   

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5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Because our whole shtick is that we win those championships on the mat, they are not voted on.   

What do we do if there is a global pandemic then? If you can't carry out the original plan, there are options outside of doing nothing at all.

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Just now, russelscout said:

What do we do if there is a global pandemic then? If you can't carry out the original plan, there are options outside of doing nothing at all.

And what does awarding an artificial award do exactly?  All-American honors and championships are not voted on in wrestling, they are determined through results on the mat.  The whole point of wrestling is finding out who is best by going toe to toe.  So what does an artificial award do for us during this global pandemic?  You to answer your question, what do we do if there is a global pandemic?...... accept that there will be no championships this year (like there has been in the past with global crisis) and focus on getting through the global pandemic.

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And what does awarding an artificial award do exactly?  All-American honors and championships are not voted on in wrestling, they are determined through results on the mat.  The whole point of wrestling is finding out who is best by going toe to toe.  So what does an artificial award do for us during this global pandemic?  You to answer your question, what do we do if there is a global pandemic?...... accept that there will be no championships this year (like there has been in the past with global crisis) and focus on getting through the global pandemic.

in 1945 there was no season. We had an entire season all the way up to the last tourney. Its truly unique.

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15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And what does awarding an artificial award do exactly?  All-American honors and championships are not voted on in wrestling, they are determined through results on the mat.  The whole point of wrestling is finding out who is best by going toe to toe.  So what does an artificial award do for us during this global pandemic?  You to answer your question, what do we do if there is a global pandemic?...... accept that there will be no championships this year (like there has been in the past with global crisis) and focus on getting through the global pandemic.

It will never be the same as earning it on the mat, but 20 and 30 years down the road, it will mean something to these wrestlers and their families. It identifies them and recognizes their success instead of simply being "another dude." It will matter on resumes and job applications as well. It is not the same, but it absolutely does matter and is just as legit as any basketball or football "All-American." 

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Just now, russelscout said:

in 1945 there was no season. We had an entire season all the way up to the last tourney. Its truly unique.

It is unique. I just feel like there are so many flaws with this idea.  The main one being that this sport has a history of overwhelming evidence that seeds don't go chalk.  The top 8 seeds have NOT earned All-American honors, they earned a top 8 seed.  I get that the season got scraped and we're all sitting here without closure, nothing compared to the athletes.  I would be willing to bet the majority of athletes you are talking about would not want to accept and artificial award they did not earn on the mat.

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4 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

It will never be the same as earning it on the mat, but 20 and 30 years down the road, it will mean something to these wrestlers and their families. It identifies them and recognizes their success instead of simply being "another dude." It will matter on resumes and job applications as well. It is not the same, but it absolutely does matter and is just as legit as any basketball or football "All-American." 

I honestly cannot imagine any of them will get any more out of life by receiving an artificial award.  Again its a nice idea and provides a warm fuzzy.  Being a four year college wrestler means alot on a resume, that in of itself takes you  out of the category of "simply being another dude".   

Just my opinion, but I am not for awarding anything that wasn't earned.  Maybe I'm taking too hard of a stance, I'll acknowledge that.

Edited by Lurker

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

It is unique. I just feel like there are so many flaws with this idea.  The main one being that this sport has a history of overwhelming evidence that seeds don't go chalk.  The top 8 seeds have NOT earned All-American honors, they earned a top 8 seed.  I get that the season got scraped and we're all sitting here without closure, nothing compared to the athletes.  I would be willing to bet the majority of athletes you are talking about would not want to accept and artificial award they did not earn on the mat.

obviously they don't go chalk. The likely that 8 wrestlers place as predicted in the same spots is an extremely high bar to meet, but it is still much closer than it would be if you threw everyone in a bracket and assigned seeds randomly. They dont go chalk, but it still reasonably predicts how it would finish.

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

I honestly cannot imagine any of them will get any more out of life by receiving an artificial award.  Again its a nice idea and provides a warm fuzzy.  Being a four year college wrestler means alot on a resume, that in of itself takes you  out of the category of "simply being another dude".   

Just my opinion, but I am not for awarding anything that wasn't earned.

Its not always about that though. I bet a parent and grandparent would feel different. 

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5 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Its not always about that though. I bet a parent and grandparent would feel different. 

I understand that, and I understand opinions/feelings vary.  I have five children.  The two who have graduated earned all-state and all-american honors.  My oldest for example was a hurdler, and if this situation were in her time, I would be more than fine with her not being designated an accomplishment that was supposed to be earned through the competition. I would reinforce to her that its not the piece of hardware, its what we gain and how we grow through the process and respond to the result.  That is more important and will get them further in life than an artificial designation.

Edited by Lurker

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Thanks for brining this topic up, I’ve been ridiculed for suggesting this. I don’t see why we can’t just say 8 AAs based on seeds just so the season isn’t lost. These guys earned the right to be top 8 seeds, why just have nothing when at least a little something can be done. 

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22 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I understand that, and I understand opinions/feelings vary.  I have five children.  The two who have graduated earned all-state and all-american honors.  My oldest for example was a hurdler, and if this situation were in her time, I would be more than fine with her not being designated an accomplishment that was supposed to be earned through the competition. I would reinforce to her that its not the piece of hardware, its what we gain and how we grow through the process and respond to the result.  That is more important and will get them further in life than an artificial designation.

Yes, but your perspective is that of someone that was able to see your loved ones accomplish their goals, not of someone that had something torn away from them. It is much easier for you to look back and say it is not that big of a deal when you know these accomplishments will never be taken away.

You state that your children made "all-state" and "all-american" as a source of pride. How did they get these titles? What criteria did they meet? 

Edited by ptz305

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5 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

Yes, but your perspective is that of someone that was able to see your loved ones accomplish their goals, not of someone that had something torn away from them. You state that they made "all-state" and "all-american" as a source of pride. How did they get these titles? 

I also am coming from perspective of seeing loved ones stopped short of their goals through decision as opposed to actions.  But that is not as important to me as what they learned/gained in the process.

My statement of their accomplishments was from a sense of accomplishment, they earned those accomplishment through the competition.  The pride doesn't come in the accomplishment, but in what they did and the processes they undertook to achieve them.  And that still carries with them today....I don't even know if they know where their medals are.

Edited by Lurker

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12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I also am coming from perspective of seeing loved ones stopped short of their goals through decision as opposed to actions.  But that is not as important to me as what they learned/gained in the process.

My statement of their accomplishments was from a sense of accomplishment, they earned those accomplishment through the competition.  The pride doesn't come in the accomplishment, but in what they did and the processes they undertook to achieve them.  And that still carries with them today....I don't even know if they know where their medals are.

I get it, but you also said they made "all-state" and "all-american" as proof of their success. I agree that the accomplishment itself is not the source of pride, but it is validating and something that is almost universally recognized as a sign of success. 

Edited by ptz305

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19 minutes ago, kyleinthecircle said:

Definitely should award all americans based off seed and name Iowa national champions, just like football would. The seeds would be perfect because it would be based off of regular season and the short amount of postseason there was (conference tournaments). 

I'd be opposed to naming Iowa champs for the same reason I'd be opposed to naming the #1 seed champs, because they didn't actually wrestle. But AAs being a season long award is something that pretty much every other sport does already so it isn't a stretch. 

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1 minute ago, ptz305 said:

I get it, but you also said they made "all-state" and "all-american" as proof of their success. I agree that the accomplishment itself is not the source of pride, but it is validating and something that is almost universally recognized as a sign of success. 

I think you misinterpreted where I was coming from with state those accomplishments.  I was stating it simply as part of the example, and that I would have no problem if those championships were cancelled and they didn't have that designation.  For that reason, it would have been designated, based on opinion, not through winning the competition.  That's my point with this.

I should also clarify that this is not a hard fighting stance for me, not as much as its probably coming off.  It's just that simply if this were up to a vote and I had a vote, I would vote no.  If it passed anyway, I would be more than fine with it. 

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

in 1945 there was no season. We had an entire season all the way up to the last tourney. Its truly unique.

Actually, there was a season in 1943, '44, and '45.  The EIWA tournament was held all three years.  It was just the NCAAs that were canceled; my guess is that the travel would have been a problem with the railroads tied up with war supplies and servicemen, and wartime civilian auto, truck, and bus construction non-existent.

I'm recommending that the NCAA strike medallions for the qualifiers to the championship tournament, and for any other sport that's already had its qualifying tournaments.  It's what the U. S. did in 1980 for the Summer Olympics athletes who didn't get to go to Moscow.  Small consolation perhaps, but it's tangible proof of their accomplishment of qualifying for the tournament.

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18 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

There's nothing to award.  "Top Seed @ 197 pounds" isn't a real thing.  They can still award the Hodge, Gorrian, Most Dominant, etc.

Tom Brands surely wins Coach of the Year.

How can they award the Gorrarrian?

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