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MonagFam

Question on Cael Sandersons collegiate career...

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I initially posted this on Legends of the Mat, but there were not any replies.  Considering the recent developments and having coronavirus fatigue without having coronavirus itself, I thought I would try a larger audience. 

I wasn't following the sport at the time, though I recall knowing about  Cael's run to perfection back then.  It is an amazing accomplishment, which appears to rightly put him as #1 on Best Collegiate Wrestlers of All Time lists.  

That said are there any "belmishes" or controversies with his run?  

I was thinking of someone like Floyd Mayweather.  There are a couple wins that some dispute and maybe some argument that he cherry picked some opponents at just the right time.

Or take someone like Mike Tyson.  Pre Buster Douglas, he was considered the baddest man on the planet, but today you hear about the weak state the HWT division was as he came up, etc. 

Are there any legitimate arguments like this regarding his run without diminishing the accomplishment?

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1 minute ago, MonagFam said:

I initially posted this on Legends of the Mat, but there were not any replies.  Considering the recent developments and having coronavirus fatigue without having coronavirus itself, I thought I would try a larger audience. 

I wasn't following the sport at the time, though I recall knowing about  Cael's run to perfection back then.  It is an amazing accomplishment, which appears to rightly put him as #1 on Best Collegiate Wrestlers of All Time lists.  

That said are there any "belmishes" or controversies with his run?  

I was thinking of someone like Floyd Mayweather.  There are a couple wins that some dispute and maybe some argument that he cherry picked some opponents at just the right time.

Or take someone like Mike Tyson.  Pre Buster Douglas, he was considered the baddest man on the planet, but today you hear about the weak state the HWT division was as he came up, etc. 

Are there any legitimate arguments like this regarding his run without diminishing the accomplishment?

I think he had a close 4-3 win over Damion Hahn once.. but im not completely sure.. as far as I know he was pretty squeeky clean, but then again there wasnt social media back then to try and dig up peoples dirty laundry...

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I think he had a close 4-3 win over Damion Hahn once.. but im not completely sure.. as far as I know he was pretty squeeky clean, but then again there wasnt social media back then to try and dig up peoples dirty laundry...

That was really the only match that he was close to losing.  He was Incredibly dominant- really it just looked like he was toying with everyone.

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Just now, shieldofpistis said:

I personally wouldn't say Cael's accomplishment is close to Floy'ds because Floyd is undefeated in a professional sport.  Imagine if Floyd boxed in college from 18-22.  People think he is a safe boxer now, but you should see what he did to Gatti. 

To be fair, I only used him as an example and not to equate it as a 1 to 1 comparison.   Floyd's perfect record, however, did make me think about perfection in general. 

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1 minute ago, Cradle1 said:

That was really the only match that he was close to losing.  He was Incredibly dominant- really it just looked like he was toying with everyone.

Were there a lot of good wrestlers at the weights he competed with still?

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27 minutes ago, MonagFam said:

Were there a lot of good wrestlers at the weights he competed with still?

I'd say it was actually one of the toughest eras of the 184  weight historically the three years he wrestled there, less so but still a quality field at 197 his senior year.   Among the guys he regularly dominated were Daniel Cormier and Brandon Eggum- both future world medalists, Andy Hrovat (future Olympian), Brad Vering (later an NCAA Champ and I believe a Greco World Medalist but don't hold me to that as I don't follow Greco), Damian Hahn- future 2x NCAA Champ, Mark Munoz (NCAA Champ), and very tough mutiple AA's Victor Sveda and Nick Preston.  So yeah, the field certainly blew away the current field we have (though I do think the highly impressive Zahid would have pushed Cael at least).

Senior Year he beat Jon Trenge to win the title with about six takedowns.  Trenge is likely one of the all-time best to not win an NCAA Title, I'd say he's comparable to a Kollin Moore, force me to choose and I'd probably go Trenge. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Wasn’t that match during hahns redshirt year?

Yes it was.  Hahn beat a few NCAA Champions while still in high school (Mark Branch and maybe Mike Van Arsdale or Dan St. John) and I believe may have beaten Cael in freestyle once at some point (maybe a jr. world trials type of tournament) so at that point everyone thought he was gonna come in and be a threat to Cael, but he only managed a couple of 5th place finishes at 184 (before moving up to 197) which I think speaks to how tough the weight was. 

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18 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

Yes it was.  Hahn beat a few NCAA Champions while still in high school (Mark Branch and maybe Mike Van Arsdale or Dan St. John) and I believe may have beaten Cael in freestyle once at some point (maybe a jr. world trials type of tournament) so at that point everyone thought he was gonna come in and be a threat to Cael, but he only managed a couple of 5th place finishes at 184 (before moving up to 197) which I think speaks to how tough the weight was. 

My father has been wrestling, coaching and following wrestling in NJ since the early 70s and to this day he still says Damian Hahn is the best high school wrestler he’s ever seen.

fun fact- Hahn actually autographed my wrestling shoes at tournament in his home town back while he was still wrestling at Minnesota

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1 hour ago, Cradle1 said:

That was really the only match that he was close to losing.  He was Incredibly dominant- really it just looked like he was toying with everyone.

Pretty sure he had a one pointer with Vertus Jones as well, maybe the All Star Classic?

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I think he had a close 4-3 win over Damion Hahn once.. but im not completely sure.. as far as I know he was pretty squeeky clean, but then again there wasnt social media back then to try and dig up peoples dirty laundry...

Yeah.  That was in his RS year.  

 

And I believe he actually lost to Hahn as well.  I believe it was in freestyle though.  

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1 hour ago, MonagFam said:

I initially posted this on Legends of the Mat, but there were not any replies.  Considering the recent developments and having coronavirus fatigue without having coronavirus itself, I thought I would try a larger audience. 

I wasn't following the sport at the time, though I recall knowing about  Cael's run to perfection back then.  It is an amazing accomplishment, which appears to rightly put him as #1 on Best Collegiate Wrestlers of All Time lists.  

That said are there any "belmishes" or controversies with his run?  

I was thinking of someone like Floyd Mayweather.  There are a couple wins that some dispute and maybe some argument that he cherry picked some opponents at just the right time.

Or take someone like Mike Tyson.  Pre Buster Douglas, he was considered the baddest man on the planet, but today you hear about the weak state the HWT division was as he came up, etc. 

Are there any legitimate arguments like this regarding his run without diminishing the accomplishment?

Well, Cael wasn't perfect. He DID lose a match, albeit he was redshirting. Even so I think most the people here probably considered him the best at his weight even the year he redshirted. Barring that minor hiccup, which most guys don't count, he was pretty dominant. We're talking about on par with what Lee has done this year, but for his entire career. But as far as "controversies", not a one that I remember. 

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46 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

Yes it was.  Hahn beat a few NCAA Champions while still in high school (Mark Branch and maybe Mike Van Arsdale or Dan St. John) and I believe may have beaten Cael in freestyle once at some point (maybe a jr. world trials type of tournament) so at that point everyone thought he was gonna come in and be a threat to Cael, but he only managed a couple of 5th place finishes at 184 (before moving up to 197) which I think speaks to how tough the weight was. 

 

I also remember hearing Hahn beating him as a senior. I think in freestyle. 

I think he took those 5ths due to cutting to much weight.  

I believe he also beat Ray Brinzer and Steve Williams.  Who were 4-8 yrs his senior. 

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1 hour ago, MonagFam said:

I initially posted this on Legends of the Mat, but there were not any replies.  Considering the recent developments and having coronavirus fatigue without having coronavirus itself, I thought I would try a larger audience. 

I wasn't following the sport at the time, though I recall knowing about  Cael's run to perfection back then.  It is an amazing accomplishment, which appears to rightly put him as #1 on Best Collegiate Wrestlers of All Time lists.  

That said are there any "belmishes" or controversies with his run?  

I was thinking of someone like Floyd Mayweather.  There are a couple wins that some dispute and maybe some argument that he cherry picked some opponents at just the right time.

Or take someone like Mike Tyson.  Pre Buster Douglas, he was considered the baddest man on the planet, but today you hear about the weak state the HWT division was as he came up, etc. 

Are there any legitimate arguments like this regarding his run without diminishing the accomplishment?

He lost to Paul Jenn from Iowa during his redshirt year wrestling unattached, but that was the only collegiate folkstyle loss I'm aware of.  He had a few close matches, but in college he was not known for wrestling close matches.  He did lose more than a handful of times in freestyle during college though.  I think he took losses from Brinzer, Simpsons, Van Arsdale, Gutches and probably a few others (Burton?).  I think Hahn had a win over him in freestyle too, but it might have been at the university or junior level.  But no controversies about his wins or anything.  His close wins weren't because of bad calls or anything if that's what you're wondering.  

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The All star classic match with Vertus Jones in Cael's freshman year was I believe 7-6. There was a late scramble where it looked as though Vertus was going to get the takedown but Cael was able to scramble well until  time ran out. I had this event on VHS but I'm afraid I've lost the tape.

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