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Schuteandscore

Hodge will be awarded

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13 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Great trivia question in the future. Only wrestler to win the hodge in a year he didn’t win NCAAs. 

What?  That’s already been discussed as untrue in this thread.

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16 hours ago, mistydawn said:

Did you follow the season?  Obviously not, Iowa said from the beginning that Lee was not going to compete in all of the matches and the two matches he missed was immediately prior to US Senior Nationals and the weekend after the senior nationals.  Makes sense doesn't it?   Glory is a good wrestler and we all wish the NCAA had occurred, but since it didn't we have to look at what the facts are--what really took place.  Don't try to say that a guy that won the NCAA's in what was selected as the toughest weight at the NCAA's that year ducked someone--really?  Freestyle doesn't count for the Hodge, but it does for the United States Olympic Team.  Don't go there.  Lee took on tougher competition at the US Senior Nationals than there would have been at the NCAA Tournament or anybody he did wrestle or would have wrestled by far, so he wasn't ducking anyone--he was trying to qualify for the Olympic Trials.  I don't think we should hold it against a wrestler that was trying to balance folk style and freestyle so his team could compete for a team title when he could have taken an Olympic Redshirt and just focused on one style.  Lee is 2-0 against Glory and neither was close.  Glory was having a great season this year, but no one was as dominant as Lee has been with 17 bonus point wins in 18 matches and he only missed bonus by 1 point in the one match he didn't get bonus.  Furthermore, the one wrestler he didn't bonus he defeated by a score of 19-3 at the Big 10's.  Lee wrestles in a tougher conference etc., he beat a common opponent by bonus that Glory beat by decision and Lee's win was by far more dominant--I watched both matches.    This comparison is not even close.  Glory barely defeated the Lehigh wrestler....  I think it went to OT....  Really.  You can't point to Glory being better this year and closed the gap, because this year Lee looks more solid than in either of the other two seasons, so he was on a roll as well.    We are all sad and disappointed that the NCAA Tournament was cancelled, but to try to say that Lee did something wrong this year other than being totally dominant and also unselfish by trying to balance two styles during the same season is a reach, unfair and points to a strong connection or rationale to try to justify something that simply isn't there.   

When did Spencer lee ever win the toughest weight in ncaas? Sitting out the 2nd day of midlands had nothing to do with trying to qualify for the Olympics, you must forget when Spencer lee randomly sat out the northwestern dual last year, or was he just trying to make an Olympic team then too? So Seth gross can come back from spinal fusion and wrestle a double schedule, including the same midlands tournament as Lee but Spencer needed to sit out because? And comparing a match between glory and Patezell , when they grew up by each other and have been wrestling each other since middle school so that’s a BS comparison..

I'm the first to praise Lee for some of the awesome stuff he’s accomplished on the mat, but that being said it doesn’t make anything I said not true but because your a Spencer lee fan boy you seem pretty upset, and my whole point was without the ncaa tournament that Kolon Moore is more deserving of the hodge then Lee is 

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4 hours ago, Crotalus said:

You should get him a trophy and engrave "You're #1 in my heart" on it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Thats how triangular results work. A beats B. B beats C. C beats A.

You act like you dont know how brackets work.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Thats how triangular results work. A beats B. B beats C. C beats A.
You act like you dont know how brackets work.
Well, back in my day, whoever got their name written on the last line that said "Champion" under it was, you know, the champ. All the would'ves and should'ves didn't mean ****. Has that changed?

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35 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Well, back in my day, whoever got their name written on the last line that said "Champion" under it was, you know, the champ. All the would'ves and should'ves didn't mean ****. Has that changed?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Not at all. Spencer is still the champ. We're talking hypotheticals.

Lee couldnt beat Rivera... twice... Has that changed?

No different then those who say Spencer would have won if not for the hands to the face call, which I might add was one of the VALID and actual GOOD hands to the face calls made all last year.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Not at all. Spencer is still the champ. We're talking hypotheticals.

Lee couldnt beat Rivera... twice... Has that changed?

No different then those who say Spencer would have won if not for the hands to the face call, which I might add was one of the VALID and actual GOOD hands to the face calls made all last year.

The hypotheticals being thrown around are to denigrate the champ's accomplishment. The "yeah they won but...." is laughable when the other guy couldn't even get there to give the champ the opportunity. If we're going to talk hypotheticals then yes, Lee would've beaten Rivera in the finals. Lee has proven he gets the job done when it comes to NCAAs.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

The hypotheticals being thrown around are to denigrate the champ's accomplishment. The "yeah they won but...." is laughable when the other guy couldn't even get there to give the champ the opportunity. If we're going to talk hypotheticals then yes, Lee would've beaten Rivera in the finals. Lee has proven he gets the job done when it comes to NCAAs.

 

 

And Seabass has proven he can legitimately and consistently beat Spencer Lee. Neither you nor I are wrong.

Nothing i wrote was denigrating Spencer lee's accomplishment. It was simply pointing out the facts and referencing previous and recent results as evidence.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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2 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

When did Spencer lee ever win the toughest weight in ncaas? Sitting out the 2nd day of midlands had nothing to do with trying to qualify for the Olympics, you must forget when Spencer lee randomly sat out the northwestern dual last year, or was he just trying to make an Olympic team then too? So Seth gross can come back from spinal fusion and wrestle a double schedule, including the same midlands tournament as Lee but Spencer needed to sit out because? And comparing a match between glory and Patezell , when they grew up by each other and have been wrestling each other since middle school so that’s a BS comparison..

I'm the first to praise Lee for some of the awesome stuff he’s accomplished on the mat, but that being said it doesn’t make anything I said not true but because your a Spencer lee fan boy you seem pretty upset, and my whole point was without the ncaa tournament that Kolon Moore is more deserving of the hodge then Lee is 

Thanks for asking the question.  I don't get to vote and I would wager that neither did you, but he was awarded the Hammer Award for winning the 2018 NCAA Tournament.  The Hammer award is awarded to the wrestler that was determined to have won the toughest weight class.  Good question and I'm glad I could help you learn something new today.  I am a Spencer Lee Fan Boy, but I'm also a Fan Boy of Nick Lee, Jason Nolf, Alex Marinelli  and many others.   I love guys that score points.  The reason why I am defending Lee is that there are are few posters on this forum that go out of their way to be negative and I decided to not just sit back and read the BS any longer.  I could list the posters that are relentless and negative on this one guy.  To bring up tired old BS clearly illustrates your negative bias as well.  I have never accused or made a negative comment on another wrestler.  All the guys miss matches, get injured, sick, tweek things that none of us aware of and that is just sad that you try to make it a negative.  Rivera missed matches this year, DeSanto missed matches this year, Cenzo missed big matches last year...it happens.  All I know is that they have a championship at the end of the year to settle things and for the past two seasons Lee has entered the NCAA Tournament and taken on and dominated all that put their toe on the line.  Rivera and Glory were both in his bracket but didn't earn the right to face him.  Rivera is a great wrestler and Lee is 2-2 against him, but they didn't meet at the NCAA Tournament because he lost 8-2 in the semi round and that is not Spencer Lee's fault.  Glory is also a great wrestler and Lee is 2-0 against him.  Lee wrestled the guy that made it to the finals and easily won in each of the past two years.  Just as I mentioned Nick Lee, Spencer Lee is a scoring machine and I love that about him.  He was the most dominant wrestler by far and just as you and I didn't vote for the Hammer award... we also don't write for FLO and they keep detailed records and there is a reason they have Lee ranked #1 in the Hodge rankings.  His termination rate of matches is crazy and the highest.  His bonus point win total is the highest and his average mat time is also absurd and that's based on technical falls, which is also crazy.  He's terminating matches by beating guys by 15 points....  I think I read that he has scored 283 match points and given up 18....  Are you kidding me, so yes, I am guilty of your accusation and I am a fan boy.  I am guilty of being a fan of many great wresters.  I am not a fan of posters casting negative aspersions behind fake screen names without facts as so many on these message board  often do.  I think accusing any of these young men of ducking or faking injuries is wrong and I wish we all had to supply our real names because there would be far fewer negative posts.  I don't mind opinions, or advocating for one over another etc., but accusing guys of ducking is wrong.  You don't know the facts.    I would love to know who some of you guys are, because I think it's pretty low class to make negative accusations against these young men without sharing who you are.  You're willing to take shots at them publicly, using their name freely, but you hide behind a screen name while you do it.  We know who they are, where they live, who they wrestle for--why don't you put your toe on the line as well.  

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8 minutes ago, mistydawn said:

Thanks for asking the question.  I don't get to vote and I would wager that neither did you, but he was awarded the Hammer Award for winning the 2018 NCAA Tournament.  The Hammer award is awarded to the wrestler that was determined to have won the toughest weight class.  Good question and I'm glad I could help you learn something new today.  I am a Spencer Lee Fan Boy, but I'm also a Fan Boy of Nick Lee, Jason Nolf, Alex Marinelli  and many others.   I love guys that score points.  The reason why I am defending Lee is that there are are few posters on this forum that go out of their way to be negative and I decided to not just sit back and read the BS any longer.  I could list the posters that are relentless and negative on this one guy.  To bring up tired old BS clearly illustrates your negative bias as well.  I have never accused or made a negative comment on another wrestler.  All the guys miss matches, get injured, sick, tweek things that none of us aware of and that is just sad that you try to make it a negative.  Rivera missed matches this year, DeSanto missed matches this year, Cenzo missed big matches last year...it happens.  All I know is that they have a championship at the end of the year to settle things and for the past two seasons Lee has entered the NCAA Tournament and taken on and dominated all that put their toe on the line.  Rivera and Glory were both in his bracket but didn't earn the right to face him.  Rivera is a great wrestler and Lee is 2-2 against him, but they didn't meet at the NCAA Tournament because he lost 8-2 in the semi round and that is not Spencer Lee's fault.  Glory is also a great wrestler and Lee is 2-0 against him.  Lee wrestled the guy that made it to the finals and easily won in each of the past two years.  Just as I mentioned Nick Lee, Spencer Lee is a scoring machine and I love that about him.  He was the most dominant wrestler by far and just as you and I didn't vote for the Hammer award... we also don't write for FLO and they keep detailed records and there is a reason they have Lee ranked #1 in the Hodge rankings.  His termination rate of matches is crazy and the highest.  His bonus point win total is the highest and his average mat time is also absurd and that's based on technical falls, which is also crazy.  He's terminating matches by beating guys by 15 points....  I think I read that he has scored 283 match points and given up 18....  Are you kidding me, so yes, I am guilty of your accusation and I am a fan boy.  I am guilty of being a fan of many great wresters.  I am not a fan of posters casting negative aspersions behind fake screen names without facts as so many on these message board  often do.  I think accusing any of these young men of ducking or faking injuries is wrong and I wish we all had to supply our real names because there would be far fewer negative posts.  I don't mind opinions, or advocating for one over another etc., but accusing guys of ducking is wrong.  You don't know the facts.    I would love to know who some of you guys are, because I think it's pretty low class to make negative accusations against these young men without sharing who you are.  You're willing to take shots at them publicly, using their name freely, but you hide behind a screen name while you do it.  We know who they are, where they live, who they wrestle for--why don't you put your toe on the line as well.  

You can say what you want but the fact is the guy voluntarily pulled out of the second day of midlands and the only dual he missed all year was against the # 2 ranked guy..lee was 1-0 against returning AAs and sat out twice against the only other AA on his schedule, to act like when determining the hodge that u can just discard because he teched a lot of other people is a biased argument..Kolin Moore is 27-0 has a 75 percent bonus rate and wrestled all year long.. and I could careless what Flo hodge ranking are, nomad does them and he’s the most biased and opinionated guy there, and there regular ranking were pretty messed up this year too ....so in your opinion if Tom brands doesn’t come out and say yea I didn’t want lee to wrestle 2nd day of midlands then we can’t talk about it? Or point out the fact he missed the northwestern dual last year for 1 reason and 1 reason only and that was to avoid seabass til the big 10 finals? No one is disparaging Spencer lee when they question if he should win the hodge, if he does win great, he’s seems like an awesome guy but all of sudden it’s blasphemy for me to say kolin Moore deserves a look? Hell if zahid doesnt fail a piss test the hodge would be going to him right now without question

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You continued negative assertions are unfair and without merit.  Again, easy for you to call out these 18-23 year young men by name, we can message them on social media, they can read this stuff, we can reach out through their athletic departments, because we know who they are, but yet, you hide behind. antitroll2828 screen name.  Your lack of response gave me all I needed to know regarding your willingness to put your name by the posts that accuse guys of ducking.  You're the one ducking.  Do you know what happened?  Do you know why any of the wrestlers that missed this year missed?  Are you going to throw Cenzo under the bus as well for missing big matches last year?  I won't, because I know if he could go he would have went.  No, so you use it to bring some guy down.    Lee has wrestled on the biggest stages.  Cadet Worlds, Junior Worlds, Super 32, Ironman, PowerAde, NCAA's Big 10....  He lost to NATO at the Big Ten tournament and was on his way to a tech fall when he pinned him later at NCAAs.  He got pinned by Piccinni in the last dual of the year and then beat him 11-4 at the NCAA's.  Some guys are just big time wrestlers and Lee is one of them. I wouldn't bet against him at the NCAA Tournament because he shows up.   He is also someone that never makes excuses and it willing to take accountability for his actions and results.  He is willing to put his name on things, but the big brave posters on this board hide behind names such as antitroll2828 ....  Sad.  As far as post season awards, you can only compete against the guys that are good enough to make it to you in the NCAA Finals, the same can be said for any of the post season awards.  If the names are nominated then the competition is on.   

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13 minutes ago, mistydawn said:

...there are are few posters on this forum that go out of their way to be negative and I decided to not just sit back and read the BS any longer... I would love to know who some of you guys are, because I think it's pretty low class to make negative accusations against these young men without sharing who you are.  You're willing to take shots at them publicly, using their name freely, but you hide behind a screen name while you do it.  We know who they are, where they live, who they wrestle for--why don't you put your toe on the line as well.  

You are not alone with your opinion but the good of anonymous collaboration outweighs the bad.  I researched this topic and changed my opinion to now prefer the anonymous option.  This forum allows the 13 year old Sam Herrings and nobody special (nearly 40 years old) like me to ideate with current college coaches and the previous generation (the salt of the earth).  I am a lists guy and here are my considerations.

Reasons for named members

  1. Members are more likely to engage others in the same respectful manner they would in person.

Reasons for anonymous members

  1. College coaches share their opinions and ideas with pseudonyms and they have strong reasons for doing so.  They can contradict the position of their employers on topics like the coronavirus without fear of repercussion.  They can counterpoint other coaches.  
  2. Discussion is based on the idea's merit rather than author credentials.  There is less risk of the "yes-man syndrome" and other cognitive biases.  Let's be real.  How many uneducated people show the same respect to American muslims with names like Mohamed and Hussein?  Anonymous discussion leads to more honesty.
  3. Like a corporate work environment, everyone will talk like a diplomat.  There will be less flair, debate, risk, and emotion to make the forum interesting.
  4. Nothing will ensure that the member name is the legal name.  Trolls will still choose false names and continue to be candyasses.
  5. The reputation system generally rewards good contributions and moderation can limit online abusive speech.
  6. In a real name scenario, any member has the ability to cause hell for real-legal-named members.  Imagine a remote member wrote a nasty email to your boss to get you fired because you correctly :) pointed out that Gross should have had 0 pts rather than 2 pts or 4 pts for that spladle.  Bad. Bad. Bad.  Imagine if PD3 confronted you at your home, a tournament, or your work because you provided constructive criticism.
  7. Requiring real names limits free speech.

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11 minutes ago, mistydawn said:

You continued negative assertions are unfair and without merit.  Again, easy for you to call out these 18-23 year young men by name, we can message them on social media, they can read this stuff, we can reach out through their athletic departments, because we know who they are, but yet, you hide behind. antitroll2828 screen name.  Your lack of response gave me all I needed to know regarding your willingness to put your name by the posts that accuse guys of ducking.  You're the one ducking.  Do you know what happened?  Do you know why any of the wrestlers that missed this year missed?  Are you going to throw Cenzo under the bus as well for missing big matches last year?  I won't, because I know if he could go he would have went.  No, so you use it to bring some guy down.    Lee has wrestled on the biggest stages.  Cadet Worlds, Junior Worlds, Super 32, Ironman, PowerAde, NCAA's Big 10....  He lost to NATO at the Big Ten tournament and was on his way to a tech fall when he pinned him later at NCAAs.  He got pinned by Piccinni in the last dual of the year and then beat him 11-4 at the NCAA's.  Some guys are just big time wrestlers and Lee is one of them. I wouldn't bet against him at the NCAA Tournament because he shows up.   He is also someone that never makes excuses and it willing to take accountability for his actions and results.  He is willing to put his name on things, but the big brave posters on this board hide behind names such as antitroll2828 ....  Sad.  As far as post season awards, you can only compete against the guys that are good enough to make it to you in the NCAA Finals, the same can be said for any of the post season awards.  If the names are nominated then the competition is on.   

In terms of the "positive" vs "negative statement you make what does this say about Glory. Imo he has jumped levels this year, was undefeated and twice denied the opportunity to wrestle Lee. Is believing he is capable of hanging with or possibly beating Lee negative? The first time Lee wrestled Glory, Glory showed flashes of greatness while being teched. Flashes.. moments.. nothing huge. The next time they wrestled Glory scored nearfall points, something very few people ever were capable of doing and held Lee to a regular decision. From the Princeton pov i see that as a huge positive for Glory. Is this also denigrating and disrespectful to Lee? Is saying this is denigrating and disrespectful to Lee denigrating and disrespectful to Glory?

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Not a fan of this decision. Spencer and Kollin are both hodge caliber, but you have to *earn* it right? What if Noah Adams lights the field on fire? Big Ten 125 was really weak this year - maybe ACC or EIWA closes the gap on Spencer.

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I don't think there's any question that Spencer Lee has been a bulldozer, and that he faced tougher opponents in freestyle. I just don't know if the Hodge committee will give the award to someone who hasn't wrestled a complete season. I'm not sure that's ever happened before, and I am not sure sure if the committee would want to establish precedent for future Hodge candidates. Maybe the cancellation of the tournament will actually help Lee's case, though. Idk.

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53 minutes ago, pamela said:

I don't think there's any question that Spencer Lee has been a bulldozer, and that he faced tougher opponents in freestyle. I just don't know if the Hodge committee will give the award to someone who hasn't wrestled a complete season. I'm not sure that's ever happened before, and I am not sure sure if the committee would want to establish precedent for future Hodge candidates. Maybe the cancellation of the tournament will actually help Lee's case, though. Idk.

Probably does help his case, theoretically he’d end 23-0.

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5 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

Probably does help his case, theoretically he’d end 23-0.

Though the average # of matches per season has been declining, 23 is still pretty far below the number of matches any Hodge winner has ever had.

If the top 3 criteria are 1. record, 2. # of pins and 3. dominance, Kollin Moore by comparison would have theoretically finished the season at 32-0, at least 4 pins (same as Spencer), and a bonus rate of about 3 out of every 4 opponents. He's got a pretty solid case. But you might be right, maybe the cancellation of NCAAs will give the committee license to loosen up the award criteria.

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No I agree with you and actually agreed in another post of yours that Kollin Moore should get it, I was just thinking as far as Spencer Lee is concerned 23-0 looks better than 18-0 for the Hodge.  That being said, Moore deserves it.

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12 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

When did Spencer lee ever win the toughest weight in ncaas? Sitting out the 2nd day of midlands had nothing to do with trying to qualify for the Olympics, you must forget when Spencer lee randomly sat out the northwestern dual last year, or was he just trying to make an Olympic team then too? So Seth gross can come back from spinal fusion and wrestle a double schedule, including the same midlands tournament as Lee but Spencer needed to sit out because? And comparing a match between glory and Patezell , when they grew up by each other and have been wrestling each other since middle school so that’s a BS comparison..

I'm the first to praise Lee for some of the awesome stuff he’s accomplished on the mat, but that being said it doesn’t make anything I said not true but because your a Spencer lee fan boy you seem pretty upset, and my whole point was without the ncaa tournament that Kolon Moore is more deserving of the hodge then Lee is 

Actually, 2018 125 was one of the toughest weights of all time.  

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All three of these guys had great years:

Moore 26-0, 3 pins, 6 techs, 10 majors and 4 decisions.  Moores closest matches: SV win 6-4 against Woodley Oklahoma, two matches with Norfleet of ASU 5-3 and 11-9.  Wilke from Iowa 8-3 (he bumped up from 184 for the dual) and two matches with Schultz from Wisconsin 4-1 & 6-2.  

Lee 18-0, 4 pins, 9 techs, 3 majors and 1 decision, Lee also had one forfeit when MN didn't wrestle him.  Closest match Medley Michigan 8-1, he later defeated Medley 19-3.

Glory - 21-0, 4 pins, 8 techs, 3 majors and 6 decisions.  Closest matches, Paetzel Lehigh 5-3, 3-0 win against Manchio Columbia University, DeAugistono NW 4-0.  

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2 hours ago, mistydawn said:

Moore 26-0, 3 pins, 6 techs, 10 majors and 4 decisions.  Moores closest matches: SV win 6-4 against Woodley Oklahoma, two matches with Norfleet of ASU 5-3 and 11-9.  Wilke from Iowa 8-3 (he bumped up from 184 for the dual) and two matches with Schultz from Wisconsin 4-1 & 6-2.  

16-0 record against 2020 qualifiers (7 major decisions, 6 decisions, 3 technical falls.)

 

2 hours ago, mistydawn said:

Glory - 21-0, 4 pins, 8 techs, 3 majors and 6 decisions.  Closest matches, Paetzel Lehigh 5-3, 3-0 win against Manchio Columbia University, DeAugistono NW 4-0.  

9-0 record against 2020 qualifiers (5 decisions, 2 major decisions, 2 technical falls)

 

2 hours ago, mistydawn said:

Lee 18-0, 4 pins, 9 techs, 3 majors and 1 decision, Lee also had one forfeit when MN didn't wrestle him.  Closest match Medley Michigan 8-1, he later defeated Medley 19-3.

13-0 against qualifiers (5 technical falls, 4 falls, 3 major decisions, 1 decision.)

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9 hours ago, mistydawn said:

All three of these guys had great years:

Moore 26-0, 3 pins, 6 techs, 10 majors and 4 decisions.  Moores closest matches: SV win 6-4 against Woodley Oklahoma, two matches with Norfleet of ASU 5-3 and 11-9.  Wilke from Iowa 8-3 (he bumped up from 184 for the dual) and two matches with Schultz from Wisconsin 4-1 & 6-2.  

Lee 18-0, 4 pins, 9 techs, 3 majors and 1 decision, Lee also had one forfeit when MN didn't wrestle him.  Closest match Medley Michigan 8-1, he later defeated Medley 19-3.

Glory - 21-0, 4 pins, 8 techs, 3 majors and 6 decisions.  Closest matches, Paetzel Lehigh 5-3, 3-0 win against Manchio Columbia University, DeAugistono NW 4-0.  

Shane Griffith 28-0, 7 pins against D1 competition, 8 majors, pinned Ethan Smith which both Cenzo and Marinelli were unable to do

Edited by 1032004

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53 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Shane Griffith 28-0, 7 pins against D1 competition, 8 majors, pinned Ethan Smith which both Cenzo and Marinelli were unable to do

10-0 against 2020 NCAA qualifiers (7 decisions, 2 major decisions, 1 fall.)

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