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nhs67

David Taylor-Ed Ruth Theoretical

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Looking for opinions here. Seeing DT have his success up at 86 keggers(189lbs), how does everybody think his Collegiate career would have been if he had naturally gone up in college, similarly to the way Dake did.

So instead of 157-165-165-165 we saw him do 157-165-174-184.

This also would have made Ruth go 197 his senior year(or 174). So 174-174-184-184 to 174-174-184-174/197.

This definitely would have had an effect on Ruth's MMA career, where he's at 170lbs atm, had he gone 197. Perhaps put a delay on his drop, or maybe he would have just gotten comfortable at 185 and not dropped at all. Also Ruth at 197 as a senior against Frosh Cox? I don't know who wins that. At 174 I think he beats Perry.

Now to Taylor. I think he beats Perry his Junior year and then wins it all his senior year at 184. A match with Dean would have happened(yay). His freestyle progression would have been effected. Maybe. He wouldn't have had those early wars with JB. Or Dake for that matter. He wouldn't have been severely undersized against Cox in 2016.

Opinions? Thoughts?

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16 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

We are talking about Ed Ruth's senior year, right?  I don't think Taylor would have defeated Ed Ruth at 186 weight class Ruth's senior campaign.  I could be wrong.  

I agree that Taylor would not have defeated Ruth at 186, but Ruth wouldnt have defeated Taylor at 186 either. I kidd I kidd...

You mean 184. You also have the scenario where Taylor moves up each year. That said theres no way to know, but the 1 time that they did face off Taylor dominated. 

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

We are talking about Ed Ruth's senior year, right?  I don't think Taylor would have defeated Ed Ruth at 186 weight class Ruth's senior campaign.  I could be wrong.  

A freshman Gabe Dean did.

Also this wouldn't be a 165llb Taylor coming up. It would be a 174lb Taylor coming up to 184 in preparation for his senior men's circuit in freestyle.

We see the effort he put in to filling out to 86 keggers(189lbs). Every pound he put on is functional.

Instead of saying he doesn't stand a chance at beating Ruth, perhaps insight as to why? I would be interested in hearing it.

All this being said it isn't like they would both be 184. Penn State coaching staff would likely intervene and decide the best lineup, and my feeling is that if Taylor had his mind on 184, it would have been his. He was too technically sound and would have broken Ruth.

Maybe someone could post it or find it, but he had an interview after their match that DT won and he was asked if he was surprised and he said no and he was asked if he thought Ruth was surprised and his response was something like 'He knew what was coming' or something along that line. That makes mr believe that even a 165lb DT was at worst holding his own against a 184lb Ruth in the room and at best was putting it to him.

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That Taylor was only a few months out from making 74 keggers too.

That said, the original question had was how does he fare collegiately.

How does Truth Ruth do at 197? Or 174 if that is the case.

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Interesting match and 2 move sequences could have gone either way, plus while I think Ruth went deep 1 year it didn’t seem like he ever totally took to freestyle.  
 

Taylor did get some extraordinary gains since that video however.  Physically, skill set, international results, etc.

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7 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

That Taylor was only a few months out from making 74 keggers too.

That said, the original question had was how does he fare collegiately.

How does Truth Ruth do at 197? Or 174 if that is the case.

Yes.. so to answer.. I think Taylor wins 174 as a junior  over Chris Perry instead of losing to Dake. Then wins 184 as a senior beating Dean in the finals ending his career with only 1 loss against Bubba Jenkins.

As a Senior if Ruth went 197 he would be undersized. I dont think he would beat Cox at 197 but at 174 he beats either Chris Perry or Andrew Howe. Pro ably undefeated as a senior as well.

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Yes.. so to answer.. I think Taylor wins 174 as a junior  over Chris Perry instead of losing to Dake. Then wins 184 as a senior beating Dean in the finals ending his career with only 1 loss against Bubba Jenkins.

As a Senior if Ruth went 197 he would be undersized. I dont think he would beat Cox at 197 but at 174 he beats either Chris Perry or Andrew Howe. Pro ably undefeated as a senior as well.

That is actually a good point. I don't think Taylor loses senior season. Ruth had a hiccup against Dean. That likely puts Sheptock at the 2 and Dean at the 3. Dean end of season I think beats Sheptock.

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2 hours ago, Class said:

Interesting match and 2 move sequences could have gone either way, plus while I think Ruth went deep 1 year it didn’t seem like he ever totally took to freestyle.  
 

Taylor did get some extraordinary gains since that video however.  Physically, skill set, international results, etc.

Ruth didn't take to freestyle?

He made a world team long before Taylor did.

Maybe he didn't enjoy wrestling much anymore at that point but I think if he was 100% focused and committed to freestyle and not his future MMA career, he would've had much different (better) results. He seemed more "disinterested' than not "taking to freestyle". 

I think he left PSU for AZ because he HEW.

 

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Tram Race in 2013:

DT at 165 takes 2nd to Dake.

Matt Brown at 174 takes 2nd to Chris Perry of OK State.

Does Matt Brown, trimmed down and all, place 2nd at 165 still?

DT wins 174.

Current team standings have PSU at 123.5 and Oklahoma State at 119.5.

2014 is a little more fuzzy, unless you swap Ruth down to 174 and keep Brown at 165. In that scenario I believe their point output is equal as well. If Ruth goes 197 they might not win, since McIntosh was 5th that season at 197 and they just aren't going to get that sort of production by bumping the Alton Bros up a weight(149-157 to 157-165) while allowing Brown to come up(and likely not perform as well as he did with adjusting to the weight and all). Minnesota then takes 2014 title?

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8 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

David Taylor is STILL winning fantasy matchups a half dozen years later.  Have to admit, his fans have stamina!

Ok so what's your take?

Who do you pick to have beaten Taylor at 174 or 184? If you cant think of one.. you must be contributing to Taylor winning fantasy matches as well.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

That isn't what this is.

It isn’t?  Are people not picking him over Ruth?  Are people not picking him over Perry?  Are people not saying he would have finished with only 1 loss?

Simply out, it IS in fact fantasy, because none of it actually happened. Using a freestyle result to pick Taylor over Ruth is weak at best. Automatically dismissing Perry is also pretty weak considering he beat Howe twice and at that time many considered Howe to be above Taylor. 

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Ok so what's your take?

Who do you pick to have beaten Taylor at 174 or 184? If you cant think of one.. you must be contributing to Taylor winning fantasy matches as well.

I am not big on fantasy matchups, period. Why, because ANYTHING can happen. Ruth could have beaten Taylor. Howe could have. Perry could have. Dean could have. Maybe none of them would have. 

Truly, it is an exercise in futility. I just find it funny that this board has found a way to have Taylor winning nearly all of these matches over the years. Even the ones he didn’t......

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34 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

I am not big on fantasy matchups, period. Why, because ANYTHING can happen. Ruth could have beaten Taylor. Howe could have. Perry could have. Dean could have. Maybe none of them would have. 

Truly, it is an exercise in futility. I just find it funny that this board has found a way to have Taylor winning nearly all of these matches over the years. Even the ones he didn’t......

That's because he wins almost all the time. Funny huh? The topic is how he would have done. Do you disagree with my opinion that had he moved up he would have likely won 174? I guess to you the sheer premise of asking the question is funny. Let me ask you this, if Spencer Lee were to wrestle Malik Heiselman who would win? Would it be against your philosophy on fantasy matches to make a prediction?

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

It isn’t?  Are people not picking him over Ruth?  Are people not picking him over Perry?  Are people not saying he would have finished with only 1 loss?

Simply out, it IS in fact fantasy, because none of it actually happened. Using a freestyle result to pick Taylor over Ruth is weak at best. Automatically dismissing Perry is also pretty weak considering he beat Howe twice and at that time many considered Howe to be above Taylor. 

Theoretical is right in the title. Deal with it or don't.

I also put it out there that him and Ruth wouldn't have even wrestled had that been the choice of the staff. Ruth would have gone 174 or 197 or Taylor would have gone 174 or 197, had the staff chose to keep Ruth at 184.

Now... back to the point: How do you think he would have fared against the upper echelon at 174 his Junior year and 184 his senior year, assuming he filled out appropriately? Inrespect your mind for the analytics and would appreciate an on-task response. If not, oh well. My fault for trying to discuss something other than this B.S. pandemic and the cancelling of our favorite tournament of the year.

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15 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

That's because he wins almost all the time. Funny huh? The topic is how he would have done. Do you disagree with my opinion that had he moved up he would have likely won 174? I guess to you the sheer premise of asking the question is funny. Let me ask you this, if Spencer Lee were to wrestle Malik Heiselman who would win? Would it be against your philosophy on fantasy matches to make a prediction?

Are you saying he ends up winning these fantasy matchups when he ends up wrestling them?  Because Dake and Cox would certainly disagree.  But, the topic itself is indeed funny because anyone can justify their picks because there is no way to disprove them(or prove them).

No, I am not convinced he would have won.  In fact, did you not read the 1st paragraph of my initial response? 

1.)  I am not convinced he could beat out Ruth, if Ruth wanted to stay at 174.

2.)  I am not convinced he could beat Howe.  At that point Howe was above him on the freestyle ladder.

3.)  I am not convinced he could beat Perry.

4.)  I am not convinced he could beat Dean the year after at 184.

 

Finally, projecting Lee over Heinselman is SOOOOO different than projecting Taylor over NCAA Champs 1-2 weights above him.  In the case of Lee over Heinselman you actually have Lee dominating a weight class that Heinselman also wrestles in.

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1 minute ago, nhs67 said:

Theoretical is right in the title. Deal with it or don't.

I also put it out there that him and Ruth wouldn't have even wrestled had that been the choice of the staff. Ruth would have gone 174 or 197 or Taylor would have gone 174 or 197, had the staff chose to keep Ruth at 184.

Now... back to the point: How do you think he would have fared against the upper echelon at 174 his Junior year and 184 his senior year, assuming he filled out appropriately? Inrespect your mind for the analytics and would appreciate an on-task response. If not, oh well. My fault for trying to discuss something other than this B.S. pandemic and the cancelling of our favorite tournament of the year.

Hey, RELAX.  I am not jumping on you specifically.  It is just that this board has Taylor about 1,974,583-0 in Fantasy matchups over the years.  Historically, when he has actually wrestled those matches, they haven't gone as well.

Honestly, I used to like guessing how fantasy matchups would go.  However, over time, I have lost interest.  I noticed it is similar to arguing religion or politics.  You aren't going to change each others minds and absolutely don't have any actual proof to do so!

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