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9 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

 I am only stating the fact that the impact of this serious disease is dramatically different based on how each country responds. 

And this has me concerned for my local area (Southwest Florida).  Last week beaches were packed even after strong urges to stay home.  Finally beaches were closed but people kept showing up.  Next step was blocking off the parking lots, so people started tying boats together.    We now have people "escaping" New York and landing here in droves.  The President has issued Florida as one of the states of Emergency even though we are just now at the very start of that uptick, but our local leaders aren't doing much.  Our county commissioners held an emergency meeting last night because so many citizens are frustrated and concerned with the number of people not following the guidelines.  The result of that meeting was "well we are making strong recommendations to stay home, we'll see how it goes over the next five days."  They are afraid of locking it down because they are afraid of pissing some people off.  Later in the evening a guy was kicked out of one of our parks because he was holding a soccer camp with about 50 kids....

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8 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

He may be a clown but he did cure a statistically significant number of people in a Covid-infested community. It's interesting. He didn't claim to invent anything. He acknowledged quite specifically that he copied the protocols from South Korea and China and found them to be highly effective. The punchline is not that he is a magician or miracle worker; it's that he recommends the treatment he found effective be administered on an outpatient basis to de-load the acute care facilities. It's not a stupid or baseless recommendation.

We'll have to agree to disagree. When the actual title of the video says "finds cure" (rather than 'recommends treatment', etc.) - that gives me good reason to consider him a self-promoting clown, and I have no reason to believe any other claims he makes in the remainder of the content. Whether they sound or seem good or bad. He has zero credibility after claiming to have found a "cure" in the very title of the video.

 Apparently the video has since been removed, which would make sense as misleading information on Covid19 is being pulled across the board. Thank goodness.

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1 hour ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. When the actual title of the video says "finds cure" (rather than 'recommends treatment', etc.) - that gives me good reason to consider him a self-promoting clown, and I have no reason to believe any other claims he makes in the remainder of the content. Whether they sound or seem good or bad. He has zero credibility after claiming to have found a "cure" in the very title of the video.

 Apparently the video has since been removed, which would make sense as misleading information on Covid19 is being pulled across the board. Thank goodness.

Do you have a link?  How do you know he wrote the title?  If someone else posted the video perhaps they wrote the title.  This is also the way it is with news headlines, an editor generally writes the headline (and it's often wrong) not the individual reporter/journalist.  Same is true with titles on these forms, OPs writes something they think is catchy, funny, not necessarily what the first post or thread is about.

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1 hour ago, ionel said:

Do you have a link?  How do you know he wrote the title?  If someone else posted the video perhaps they wrote the title.  This is also the way it is with news headlines, an editor generally writes the headline (and it's often wrong) not the individual reporter/journalist.  Same is true with titles on these forms, OPs writes something they think is catchy, funny, not necessarily what the first post or thread is about.

So much truth to this. 

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2 hours ago, ionel said:

Do you have a link?  How do you know he wrote the title?  If someone else posted the video perhaps they wrote the title.  This is also the way it is with news headlines, an editor generally writes the headline (and it's often wrong) not the individual reporter/journalist.  Same is true with titles on these forms, OPs writes something they think is catchy, funny, not necessarily what the first post or thread is about.

Of course, no, I don't have a link. As I said - the video has been removed (most likely due to it being misleading.) No evidence to track, so no more detective work on this one.

Look, I'm not accusing you of anything negative. I watched the video, read the document, and I had/have zero reason to believe that joker, and some reason to not believe him. Now that it has been removed, it only strengthens my opinion. But at the end of the day - I'm just voicing my opinion. 

If you choose to believe otherwise, we'll just agree to disagree. I"m perfectly fine with that.

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28 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Of course, no, I don't have a link. As I said - the video has been removed (most likely due to it being misleading.) No evidence to track, so no more detective work on this one.

Look, I'm not accusing you of anything negative. I watched the video, read the document, and I had/have zero reason to believe that joker, and some reason to not believe him. Now that it has been removed, it only strengthens my opinion. But at the end of the day - I'm just voicing my opinion. 

If you choose to believe otherwise, we'll just agree to disagree. I"m perfectly fine with that.

I just wanted to see it, to see what he said and also see if it's the same doctor many doctors in the US have been referencing, believe the doc referenced by US experts was French.  If this one also & perhaps the same, French doesn't always translate well.

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17 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Look, I'm not accusing you of anything negative. I watched the video, read the document, and I had/have zero reason to believe that joker, and some reason to not believe him.

Your'e focusing on the messenger, not the message. I'm not trying to defend the guy. But again, the message isn't, "Look at how much I'm the man." That's what you're focused on. The message is about de-loading an overloaded acute care system and providing another very significant data point, this time domestic, employing a very similar treatment protocol that was successfully used in South Korea; Shanghai, China; and is being studied at Stanford Med and other credible institutions. I'm not even saying that the cocktail he used will work, although his results are absolutely noteworthy of anyone's attention. I find his point about extending treatment on an outpatient basis to be critical. That is the primary message he's trying to send. If you watched the video and didn't appreciate it, you were letting your bias block out the message.

Lines around hospitals in Queens NY, are literally around the block (and a Queens block is not small) and a Queens hopsital has already recorded the most deaths in a single day. Hospitals in South Florida are pitching tents to prepare for lack of acute care facility space. Look at Italy. They are literally choosing to treat patients based on age, turning away higher-risk patients because younger people are more likely to live after treatment. What are those older or otherwise immunocompromised people doing? Literally waiting in line to die because they have no other alternative.

It's simple. We either magically 10x the number of hospitals in the country or we find an outpatient treatment protocol, reserving inpatient treatment (staying at hospitals) for those who most need it.

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1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Your'e focusing on the messenger, not the message. I'm not trying to defend the guy. But again, the message isn't, "Look at how much I'm the man." That's what you're focused on. The message is about de-loading an overloaded acute care system and providing another very significant data point, this time domestic, employing a very similar treatment protocol that was successfully used in South Korea; Shanghai, China; and is being studied at Stanford Med and other credible institutions. I'm not even saying that the cocktail he used will work, although his results are absolutely noteworthy of anyone's attention. I find his point about extending treatment on an outpatient basis to be critical. That is the primary message he's trying to send. If you watched the video and didn't appreciate it, you were letting your bias block out the message.

Lines around hospitals in Queens NY, are literally around the block (and a Queens block is not small) and a Queens hopsital has already recorded the most deaths in a single day. Hospitals in South Florida are pitching tents to prepare for lack of acute care facility space. Look at Italy. They are literally choosing to treat patients based on age, turning away higher-risk patients because younger people are more likely to live after treatment. What are those older or otherwise immunocompromised people doing? Literally waiting in line to die because they have no other alternative.

It's simple. We either magically 10x the number of hospitals in the country or we find an outpatient treatment protocol, reserving inpatient treatment (staying at hospitals) for those who most need it.

Not at all. I'm focusing on not bickering with other posters. Bickering helps nobody.

As you yourself has said negatively about Musk (not this guy) who jumped into the mix (and I also quoted in my earlier post)...

On 3/24/2020 at 1:52 PM, wrestlingnerd said:

imposing himself as an authority on a disease that is confounding the best minds in medicine

I don't trust Musk, but I trust this clown even less - and he is not even remotely close to being a 'best mind in medicine.'

I understand his message clearly and without bias, and it rings of being manufactured to promote himself. Not only do I think his recommendations won't work, I think nearly everything he said is BS.

If you want to believe in someone, and you want this guy to be the one. Then you should. I won't try to tell you that you're wrong. You are entitled to an opinion.

I get to believe otherwise. And I strongly believe he is full of crap. So we need to agree to disagree (and hopefully also choose to not bicker because my opinion doesn't match yours.)

 

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3 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

 Not only do I think his recommendations won't work, I think nearly everything he said is BS.

 

Can you then provide a link?  Its gotta be out there who you are talking about.

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Ok that's obviously not the guy from France.  Think I've seen something from this before.  But I see your point.  And he is addressing the wrong person.  I don't know what to think, but would hope and presume our top doctors on the task force are getting info from experts, not this.

Edited by ionel

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Ignore everything he says except "what I'm suggesting, which has not yet been suggested, which is why I'm making this video, is that we should initiate treatment in moderate to high risk patients in the early stages of the infection in the outpatient setting."That's the point I found interesting. That applies to just about any credible treatment option being studied, not just the hydroxychloroquine + antibiotic + zinc cocktail employed by Zelenko. He may be a liar and a politically or personally motivated clown. Irrespective of that, his main point is important. We're not going to beat the disease at hospitals alone.

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41 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Your'e focusing on the messenger, not the message. I'm not trying to defend the guy. But again, the message isn't, "Look at how much I'm the man." That's what you're focused on. The message is about de-loading an overloaded acute care system and providing another very significant data point, this time domestic, employing a very similar treatment protocol that was successfully used in South Korea; Shanghai, China; and is being studied at Stanford Med and other credible institutions. I'm not even saying that the cocktail he used will work, although his results are absolutely noteworthy of anyone's attention. I find his point about extending treatment on an outpatient basis to be critical. That is the primary message he's trying to send. If you watched the video and didn't appreciate it, you were letting your bias block out the message.

Lines around hospitals in Queens NY, are literally around the block (and a Queens block is not small) and a Queens hopsital has already recorded the most deaths in a single day. Hospitals in South Florida are pitching tents to prepare for lack of acute care facility space. Look at Italy. They are literally choosing to treat patients based on age, turning away higher-risk patients because younger people are more likely to live after treatment. What are those older or otherwise immunocompromised people doing? Literally waiting in line to die because they have no other alternative.

It's simple. We either magically 10x the number of hospitals in the country or we find an outpatient treatment protocol, reserving inpatient treatment (staying at hospitals) for those who most need it.

The issue with the message is that it is potentially harmful.  I know the idea of a possible treatment protocol being out there sounds nice but this joker making videos and posting them (whatever the title) is ridiculous as it leads to people spreading unfounded rumors about what works/doesn't work and leads to people mistakenly going out and trying to self treat or stockpile medicine, and in many cases doing more harm than good.  This doctor is a family practitioner, does not have the training to be determining treatment protocols, and can't even wear PPE correctly with that beard.  

Some context on my post

1. I'm American but I work and live in Shanghai and know several Chinese doctors here who have been working on the front lines of this for the last few months.  Including doctors who have used this and other protocols.  What they say is that in some cases this has been shown to have some effect.  There is not a sense that this is some kind of miracle treatment or that it is going to be appropriate for everyone.  And there is NO sense that it would be appropriate for people to be taking this treatment prior to testing positive.
2. My mother is a physician and is currently working with patients in an ICU in the US and has 35 years of experience working with nasty diseases in nasty places.  She is reading all medical literature related to Covid19 as it is published by China, France, US institutions, and her response to this is, sure this protocol might work for some cases under some circumstances, but that this guy is a self-promoting idiot who has no business putting a video like this out.  The doctors that are actually setting up treatment protocols do not need to be watching YouTube videos posted by quacks like this.
 

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Sure, so he's a quack. But he has one valid point. 

Some context on my post

1. I am not a doctor.

2. I am involved professionally with many acute treatment centers around the country and know that at even modest rates of infection in major cities (most notably, NY), such facilities will never be able to treat the majority of patients.

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Ignore everything he says except "what I'm suggesting, which has not yet been suggested, which is why I'm making this video, is that we should initiate treatment in moderate to high risk patients in the early stages of the infection in the outpatient setting."That's the point I found interesting. That applies to just about any credible treatment option being studied, not just the hydroxychloroquine + antibiotic + zinc cocktail employed by Zelenko. He may be a liar and a politically or personally motivated clown. Irrespective of that, his main point is important. We're not going to beat the disease at hospitals alone.

We cross posted.  The idea of early treatment is great in theory, what will be interesting to see is how that happens in practice.  Right now the best treatment is still prevention.

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11 minutes ago, cu155 said:

We cross posted.  The idea of early treatment is great in theory, what will be interesting to see is how that happens in practice.  Right now the best treatment is still prevention.

Right. And prevention is working so well that the number of deaths is growing exponentially. 

Look, I"m not trying to argue or one-up you. But that last comment is like saying abstinence is the best treatment for HIV. Yes, but.... 

Prevention, yes. Lots of education and hand-washing. But then what? The latest news I thought was interesting is a NYC hospital is finding some success administering massive amounts of antioxidants intravenously (specifically, vitamin C, although zinc is obviously one being tried too). As important as remdesivir or hydroxychloroquine or whichever repurposed drug ends up being most effective are in the short to medium term, so are the little wins that will keep patients out of the hospital to begin with. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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11 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Terrible take. The death toll does not lie. Reported deaths are hard to fake in this country. The more we test, the BETTER the results will be relative to deaths because as we count more confirmed cases, the % of deaths relative to those cases drops, not the other way around. We are nowhere near the cluster that is Italy right now and have never been throughout the spread.

To put this in wrestling terms, we are still putting on our ankle bands.  The match has not even started yet in the US.  I’m just calling balls and strikes here, following science and data.  It’s not a “take.”  In 20 days, please review my posts.  We will be worse than Italy / Spain and nowhere near S Korea.  

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Just now, tommygun said:

To put this in wrestling terms, we are still putting on our ankle bands.  The match has not even started yet in the US.  I’m just calling balls and strikes here, following science and data.  It’s not a “take.”  In 20 days, please review my posts.  We will be worse than Italy / Spain and nowhere near S Korea.  

Worse in absolute terms? Sure. We have almost 6x the population than Italy. In relative terms, which is the only way to compare the impact of a health epidemic between two countries? Absolutely no way.

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1 minute ago, tommygun said:

To put this in wrestling terms, we are still putting on our ankle bands.  The match has not even started yet in the US.  I’m just calling balls and strikes here, following science and data.  It’s not a “take.”  In 20 days, please review my posts.  We will be worse than Italy / Spain and nowhere near S Korea.  

Hopefully it will all end like any good Nolf match - a quick pin and then neatly put them ankle bands back in place.

That would be nice but don't think it'll go down that way.  :(

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Worse in absolute terms? Sure. We have almost 6x the population than Italy. In relative terms, which is the only way to compare the impact of a health epidemic between two countries? Absolutely no way.

Northern Italy has about 25M people. NY state has about 20M people.  Are you suggesting NY will be more similar to S Korea or Northern Italy?  By any conceivable measurement?  The data is telling us we are poised to have many many “Italy” like scenarios on our hands throughout this country.  Do you not agree?  

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4 minutes ago, tommygun said:

Northern Italy has about 25M people. NY state has about 20M people.  Are you suggesting NY will be more similar to S Korea or Northern Italy?  By any conceivable measurement?  The data is telling us we are poised to have many many “Italy” like scenarios on our hands throughout this country.  Do you not agree?  

As I've already stated in my conversation with Lurker, I do not. The key point of contention I have is that nobody really knows what the actual number of infections really is. Testing limitations put every single stat out there in question to the point they're useless since they're probably only directionally correct in small well-resourced countries like South Korea but NOT the USA. Death toll is hard to fake though, unless you're behind a massive political firewall like China or Russia. Our death toll and Italy's are orders (plural) of magnitude off on a relative (per capita) basis and our policy response is night and day different from Italy's (as noted, they just shut down nonessential factories and production four days ago). 

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5 minutes ago, tommygun said:

Northern Italy has about 25M people. NY state has about 20M people.  Are you suggesting NY will be more similar to S Korea or Northern Italy?  By any conceivable measurement?  The data is telling us we are poised to have many many “Italy” like scenarios on our hands throughout this country.  Do you not agree?  

Italy appears to have a much higher death rate than about anywhere else.  Perhaps due to older population, spend of response and lower quality & quantity of hospital facilities.  

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9 minutes ago, ionel said:

Italy appears to have a much higher death rate than about anywhere else.  Perhaps due to older population, spend of response and lower quality & quantity of hospital facilities.  

It will be interesting to compare NY to Italy in a few weeks.  

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