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TexRef

HBCUs?

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In the last decade or so there has been a big push from smaller schools that are more enrollment based, to add wrestling. I think this is great and I love to see all of the new programs along with the resurrection of the old programs. One stone that seems to be left unturned are the HBCUs. These schools are hurting for numbers too. There were some great wrestlers and great programs at HBCUs. It would be great to see those programs come back.

If we look back 40 years ago to the 1980 NCAAs that were held in Corvallis, Oregon the #5 seed William Smith of Morgan State (Baltimore, MD) met Ricky Stewart of Oklahoma State in the finals, only to lose 11-6. That is a great finish for the #5 seed! 

 Why aren't the HBCUs adding wrestling programs to help with their enrollment? 

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36 minutes ago, TexRef said:

In the last decade or so there has been a big push from smaller schools that are more enrollment based, to add wrestling. I think this is great and I love to see all of the new programs along with the resurrection of the old programs. One stone that seems to be left unturned are the HBCUs. These schools are hurting for numbers too. There were some great wrestlers and great programs at HBCUs. It would be great to see those programs come back.

If we look back 40 years ago to the 1980 NCAAs that were held in Corvallis, Oregon the #5 seed William Smith of Morgan State (Baltimore, MD) met Ricky Stewart of Oklahoma State in the finals, only to lose 11-6. That is a great finish for the #5 seed! 

 Why aren't the HBCUs adding wrestling programs to help with their enrollment? 

Many HBCUs are heavily financially dependent on student enrollment and have modest endowments and do not receive nowhere near the same philanthropic support from rich donors like most of the elitist schools you always hear about it. I just read where leaders and advocates are lobbying for $1.5 billion in funds due to the recent situation. I bet if the funds were available wrestling might make the cut, however one still has to still consider the men’s wrestling program killer known as title 9. This program has a history of eliminating men’s wrestling, just take a look at what it did to the SEC – so increasing our sport via new programs for our young men will always have an uphill battle. Interesting topic Texref and I wish we heard more about it!

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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With the possible exception of Kentucky, T9 did nothing to cause the loss of SEC wrestling. It was the greed of football coaches who were also ADs. Along with total unconcern with other sports F+M probably has 8 more athletic programs than any in the SEC, or for that matter Texas.

--------------------

Did not Morgan state have 2 even 3 finalists?

There was some thought of adding Howard University to the EIWA, I am sure they would have welcomed the academic association, but they terminated prior to an invitation.

I think Cheney is the oldest HBCU, It is a Penna owned school, like Lock HAven or Clarion, but has dropped out of PSAC to D3, and I think only has M+W Bktball and T+F. Probably no better than 50% it will survive independently, although. it could combine with nearby Lincoln University a state related like Penn State HBCU. Both had wrestling at one time  

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1 hour ago, RichB said:

With the possible exception of Kentucky, T9 did nothing to cause the loss of SEC wrestling. It was the greed of football coaches who were also ADs. Along with total unconcern with other sports F+M probably has 8 more athletic programs than any in the SEC, or for that matter Texas.

In the late 1980’s there were 140+ collegiate wrestling teams. Today there are about 80 teams. Everyone (willing to admit it) knows that number was cut in half because of title 9. Same thing has happened and continues to happen to mens lacross, mens golf, mens gymnastics and mens swimming. Everyone also knows the effect T9 had in the 1970’s – 1980’s schools like Auburn wrestling (one of the biggest at the time), Louisiana, Florida, Kentucky and Georgia. I would love to see a school like Alabama initiate a wrestling program of their own today, especially knowing how dominant they are in football. 

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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1 hour ago, Marcus Cisero said:

In the late 1980’s there were 140+ collegiate wrestling teams. Today there are about 80 teams. Everyone (willing to admit it) knows that number was cut in half because of title 9. Same thing has happened and continues to happen to mens lacross, mens golf, mens gymnastics and mens swimming. Everyone also knows the effect T9 had in the 1970’s – 1980’s schools like Auburn wrestling (one of the biggest at the time), Louisiana, Florida, Kentucky and Georgia. I would love to see a school like Alabama initiate a wrestling program of their own today, especially knowing how dominant they are in football. 

Since I assume you mean Division I, here's the facts.

Men's Lacrosse has more programs at the end of the 2018-19 year than they did in 1982. (73-50). The percentage of schools sponsoring is also up two percent.
Men's Golf has 299 programs in 2018-19, they had 263 in 1982. The percentage of schools sponsoring is down 10 percent. In 1982, 263 of 276 D1 schools had men's golf. That number is now 299/351. 

There have been significant losses in men's gymnastics, 59-15 (but at most, only 21% of Division I institutions sponsored the sport to begin with).
Swimming is almost always a target. Men's Swimming & Diving is down 50 programs, from 181 to 131. 

So while Title IX played a prominent role in the decisions of departments and the NCAA and the law allowed Prong One (Proportionality) do most of the gutting in the mid-90s, if you're going to use sports as a crutch for your argument, use the right ones. 

At the end of 1997 alone, NCAA wrestling teams dropped by 29. The second biggest drop came with a loss of 17 teams (all 3 NCAA divisions) in 1987. There was a rush of 20 teams that came on in 1996, but most of those were existing programs which reclassified from the NAIA (like the entire RMAC). 

If you're looking at straight numbers: 
Fencing (down 22)
Gymnastics (down 44)
Rifle (down 31)
Rowing (down 1)
Skiing (down 9)
Tennis (down 26)
Volleyball (down 11)
Water Polo (down 3)
Wrestling (down 71)

Most HBCU's are so female-enrollment heavy WITH football, it'd be a disaster with them to try to add sports because they'd be so far out of compliance with all three prongs of gender equity even before getting the money for it. 

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1 hour ago, TripNSweep said:

Didn't David Morgan who later wrestled for Michigan State start at a HBCU?  I thought he wrestled for Howard but I could be wrong.  

David Morgan wrestled his freshman year at Morgan State, then transferred to MSU.

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33 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

Since I assume you mean Division I, here's the facts.

Men's Lacrosse has more programs at the end of the 2018-19 year than they did in 1982. (73-50). The percentage of schools sponsoring is also up two percent.
Men's Golf has 299 programs in 2018-19, they had 263 in 1982. The percentage of schools sponsoring is down 10 percent. In 1982, 263 of 276 D1 schools had men's golf. That number is now 299/351. 

There have been significant losses in men's gymnastics, 59-15 (but at most, only 21% of Division I institutions sponsored the sport to begin with).
Swimming is almost always a target. Men's Swimming & Diving is down 50 programs, from 181 to 131. 

So while Title IX played a prominent role in the decisions of departments and the NCAA and the law allowed Prong One (Proportionality) do most of the gutting in the mid-90s, if you're going to use sports as a crutch for your argument, use the right ones. 

At the end of 1997 alone, NCAA wrestling teams dropped by 29. The second biggest drop came with a loss of 17 teams (all 3 NCAA divisions) in 1987. There was a rush of 20 teams that came on in 1996, but most of those were existing programs which reclassified from the NAIA (like the entire RMAC). 

If you're looking at straight numbers: 
Fencing (down 22)
Gymnastics (down 44)
Rifle (down 31)
Rowing (down 1)
Skiing (down 9)
Tennis (down 26)
Volleyball (down 11)
Water Polo (down 3)
Wrestling (down 71)

Most HBCU's are so female-enrollment heavy WITH football, it'd be a disaster with them to try to add sports because they'd be so far out of compliance with all three prongs of gender equity even before getting the money for it. 

Well I guess you told me, huh.  You told me nothing, because I only provided rounded numbers from memory.  You and jross can keep all your fancy data while wrestling remains at the bottom of the barrel. Smart guys like you spend more time eliminating guys like me from voicing their opinion instead of redirecting your intellect and connections towards the decision makers keeping our sport down. Bottom line title nine has hurt mens wrestling so until every mens wrestling team which was eliminated to "even the score" is reinstated I will continue to be this side of the fence. 

<I know I'm not supposed to go against the grain of those who are at the cusp of tossing me outta here - sorry, but it's how I'm hard-wired>

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Marcus,

You do the sport no favors when you spout off incorrect stats and figures as if they are gospel. I provided you the exact information you SHOULD be talking about when beating the Title IX drum. I want you to voice your opinion, but I also want you to do it from an educated stance - I disproved two of your claims in two minutes. Others can do the same when you bring that argument to the table.

I'm glad being educated on an issue and having the factual information to back it up is considered "fancy." 

It seems you have a rounding error somewhere. 

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Was the Morgan State coach the guy who used to wear the jacket or vest made out of tiger or leopard skin?

I saw him coaching at a tournament in the late 70’s, and had to look twice to make sure I was really seeing that!

There was some history/tradition associated with the jacket. 

He wore it well and was “styling” for sure!

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11 minutes ago, Old Corps said:

Was the Morgan State coach the guy who used to wear the jacket or vest made out of tiger or leopard skin?

I saw him coaching at a tournament in the late 70’s, and had to look twice to make sure I was really seeing that!

There was some history/tradition associated with the jacket. 

He wore it well and was “styling” for sure!

That was him.

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Since I assume you mean Division I, here's the facts.

Men's Lacrosse has more programs at the end of the 2018-19 year than they did in 1982. (73-50). The percentage of schools sponsoring is also up two percent.
Men's Golf has 299 programs in 2018-19, they had 263 in 1982. The percentage of schools sponsoring is down 10 percent. In 1982, 263 of 276 D1 schools had men's golf. That number is now 299/351. 

There have been significant losses in men's gymnastics, 59-15 (but at most, only 21% of Division I institutions sponsored the sport to begin with).
Swimming is almost always a target. Men's Swimming & Diving is down 50 programs, from 181 to 131. 

So while Title IX played a prominent role in the decisions of departments and the NCAA and the law allowed Prong One (Proportionality) do most of the gutting in the mid-90s, if you're going to use sports as a crutch for your argument, use the right ones. 

At the end of 1997 alone, NCAA wrestling teams dropped by 29. The second biggest drop came with a loss of 17 teams (all 3 NCAA divisions) in 1987. There was a rush of 20 teams that came on in 1996, but most of those were existing programs which reclassified from the NAIA (like the entire RMAC). 

If you're looking at straight numbers: 
Fencing (down 22)
Gymnastics (down 44)
Rifle (down 31)
Rowing (down 1)
Skiing (down 9)
Tennis (down 26)
Volleyball (down 11)
Water Polo (down 3)
Wrestling (down 71)

Most HBCU's are so female-enrollment heavy WITH football, it'd be a disaster with them to try to add sports because they'd be so far out of compliance with all three prongs of gender equity even before getting the money for it. 

Jason,  I have always wondered this and now it seems a good time to ask. Wouldn't it help men if football was counted as a co-ed sport? Why isn't it? I realize they're probably not any women in college football but that doesn't mean they can't participate. If football was considered coed than every other sport would have equal numbers. Or is there something I'm missing?

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Most HBCU's are so female-enrollment heavy WITH football, it'd be a disaster with them to try to add sports because they'd be so far out of compliance with all three prongs of gender equity even before getting the money for it. 

Coppin State doesn't have football and are very female dominant in enrollment. 

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15 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

In the late 1980’s there were 140+ collegiate wrestling teams. Today there are about 80 teams. Everyone (willing to admit it) knows that number was cut in half because of title 9. Same thing has happened and continues to happen to mens lacross, mens golf, mens gymnastics and mens swimming. Everyone also knows the effect T9 had in the 1970’s – 1980’s schools like Auburn wrestling (one of the biggest at the time), Louisiana, Florida, Kentucky and Georgia. I would love to see a school like Alabama initiate a wrestling program of their own today, especially knowing how dominant they are in football. 

Apparently you do not realize Alabama was the most important college in the elimination of college wrestling. Bear Bryant said the university athletic department could not afford it, then spent the equivalent of 5 years of wrestling budget to redecorate football offices. The six or so  remaining  programs fell like dominos.

How can a school without Women's softball, volleyball, Swimming cry title 9? Have a Title 9 problem-add field hockey or rowing. Don't cry poor. All the SEC athletic Departments except maybe Vandy,  are in the top 35 financially   

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20 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Since I assume you mean Division I, here's the facts.

Men's Lacrosse has more programs at the end of the 2018-19 year than they did in 1982. (73-50). The percentage of schools sponsoring is also up two percent.
Men's Golf has 299 programs in 2018-19, they had 263 in 1982. The percentage of schools sponsoring is down 10 percent. In 1982, 263 of 276 D1 schools had men's golf. That number is now 299/351. 

There have been significant losses in men's gymnastics, 59-15 (but at most, only 21% of Division I institutions sponsored the sport to begin with).
Swimming is almost always a target. Men's Swimming & Diving is down 50 programs, from 181 to 131. 

So while Title IX played a prominent role in the decisions of departments and the NCAA and the law allowed Prong One (Proportionality) do most of the gutting in the mid-90s, if you're going to use sports as a crutch for your argument, use the right ones. 

At the end of 1997 alone, NCAA wrestling teams dropped by 29. The second biggest drop came with a loss of 17 teams (all 3 NCAA divisions) in 1987. There was a rush of 20 teams that came on in 1996, but most of those were existing programs which reclassified from the NAIA (like the entire RMAC). 

If you're looking at straight numbers: 
Fencing (down 22)
Gymnastics (down 44)
Rifle (down 31)
Rowing (down 1)
Skiing (down 9)
Tennis (down 26)
Volleyball (down 11)
Water Polo (down 3)
Wrestling (down 71)

Most HBCU's are so female-enrollment heavy WITH football, it'd be a disaster with them to try to add sports because they'd be so far out of compliance with all three prongs of gender equity even before getting the money for it. 

Rich B I was not aware that most of the HBCU's were so female-enrollment heavy. With that being said it does make sense that adding any male sport would be tough or impossible. Thanks for the info.  

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