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maligned

It's official: Tokyo 2021 is now on. How will UWW handle it?

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Tokyo 2020 has officially become Tokyo 2021.

My guess for how UWW might handle the qualification process going forward:: 

1. Cancel Worlds for 2021 and preliminarily schedule one for this year in October. 

2. If Worlds 2020 is able to go forward with the world generally having a shot at 2 or 3 months of training, scrap qualifications already earned and use Worlds 2020 for qualifications.

3. If Worlds 2020 can't happen because Corona travel and training issues persist for too long (or can only happen among a portion of nations), keep the qualification spots earned from Worlds 2019 in place.

4. Reschedule all continental and last-chance Olympic qualifiers for 2021 on the same calendar they would have been this year.

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With the above guess that we'll see a Worlds 2020, a "fair" approach to bids having been earned in 2019 (and Pan Am qualifier 2020), might be the following:

1. Give the 6 NOCs who qualified at Worlds 2019 seeded positions at replacement Worlds 2020. Put them directly into the Round of 16 and randomly draw the rest of the nations into the brackets in competition for the remaining 10 positions in the Round of 16.

2. Put the 2 NOCs who qualified at the Pan Am qualifier 2020 directly into the semi-finals of redo Pan Am qualifier 2021.

Edited by maligned

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I think there's a couple other things at play here, in addition to what I replied in the other thread:

If you are listening to the athletes right now, they want/need as much certainty as possible.  Again you have to keep in mind these athletes are on four year training cycles.  They can't be guessing every few months at when they need to peak.  If you just look at the tapering phase we're talking four to six weeks.  Your proposal is throwing a lot more uncertainty into a situation that already has unprecedented uncertainty, when there can in no way, at this particular point nor for the foreseeable future, be any level of confidence that the plan you write will be able to be carried out. 

Your point with starting over with qualification and seeding, in my opinion you are again adding complication to an already complicated situation.  Let's say for example at the time of unrolling this, the world situation is enough that they can feel it can happen....but countries x and y are still going through that curve and their countries do not allow participation.  If those countries already have qualifying/points....they not only lose them but now also lose the opportunity to regain them.  That's just one of a million contingencies that have to be thought out when contemplating revamping the whole thing, as opposed to picking up where we left off.  

I just believe the whole plan adds extreme, and more importantly unnecessary complications to an already unprecedented situation, and is not fair to the athletes and countries that have already earned their qualification and ranking points for the Olympic Games.  

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18 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I think there's a couple other things at play here, in addition to what I replied in the other thread:

If you are listening to the athletes right now, they want/need as much certainty as possible.  Again you have to keep in mind these athletes are on four year training cycles.  They can't be guessing every few months at when they need to peak.  If you just look at the tapering phase we're talking four to six weeks.  Your proposal is throwing a lot more uncertainty into a situation that already has unprecedented uncertainty, when there can in no way, at this particular point nor for the foreseeable future, be any level of confidence that the plan you write will be able to be carried out. 

Your point with starting over with qualification and seeding, in my opinion you are again adding complication to an already complicated situation.  Let's say for example at the time of unrolling this, the world situation is enough that they can feel it can happen....but countries x and y are still going through that curve and their countries do not allow participation.  If those countries already have qualifying/points....they not only lose them but now also lose the opportunity to regain them.  That's just one of a million contingencies that have to be thought out when contemplating revamping the whole thing, as opposed to picking up where we left off.  

I just believe the whole plan adds extreme, and more importantly unnecessary complications to an already unprecedented situation, and is not fair to the athletes and countries that have already earned their qualification and ranking points for the Olympic Games.  

All very true points. But there's zero risk with putting a Worlds provisionally on the calendar in case progress is made with the disease. It would be a shame to have no Worlds or Olympics this year when there's 7 or 8 months available to plan something and it's not an enormous event to organize comparatively speaking. It could even be outside of any olympics qualification parameters. But if that happens, and if the Corona fight starts improving by June or something, there will be a temptation to rethink all of the qualification procedures. 

But you may be right. They may just want to let it ride entirely and just consider the entire year's calendar lost other than those events that local organizers deem feasible later in the year.

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3 minutes ago, maligned said:

All very true points. But there's zero risk with putting a Worlds provisionally on the calendar in case progress is made with the disease. It would be a shame to have no Worlds or Olympics this year when there's 7 or 8 months available to plan something and it's not an enormous event to organize comparatively speaking. It could even be outside of any olympics qualification parameters. But if that happens, and if the Corona fight starts improving by June or something, there will be a temptation to rethink all of the qualification procedures. 

But you may be right. They may just want to let it ride entirely and just consider the entire year's calendar lost other than those events that local organizers deem feasible later in the year.

Another thing we have to consider is why we will have no idea until we get there, many of the "experts" are expecting this to die down some over the summer but expect another spike around the world in the fall.  Just so many unknowns right now.

And to be clear, I'm not trying to be negative nellie and have a poor attitude, like @shieldofpistis was claiming of me in his unsanctioned national championship he was pushing.  I'm just bored and thinking about all these things in terms of the logistics and coordinating efforts, etc allows me a little delusion of day to day normalcy in a currently far from normal world!!

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Another thing we have to consider is why we will have no idea until we get there, many of the "experts" are expecting this to die down some over the summer but expect another spike around the world in the fall.  Just so many unknowns right now.

And to be clear, I'm not trying to be negative nellie and have a poor attitude, like @shieldofpistis was claiming of me in his unsanctioned national championship he was pushing.  I'm just bored and thinking about all these things in terms of the logistics and coordinating efforts, etc allows me a little delusion of day to day normalcy in a currently far from normal world!!

Why mention me we were getting along fine.  You want to start an argument again?  What a cheap shot.  

Why couldn't you keep piece between us?

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13 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Why mention me we were getting along fine.  You want to start an argument again?  What a cheap shot.  

Why couldn't you keep piece between us?

I'm not sure how you are taking that as starting an argument or taking a cheap shot?  Did I say something inaccurate, or even infer anything bad about you? 

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4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I'm not sure how you are taking that as starting an argument or taking a cheap shot?  Did I say something inaccurate, or even infer anything bad about you? 

You could have left me out of it.  That is what you should have done.  

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7 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

You could have left me out of it.  That is what you should have done.  

Relax, it wasn't at all about you, or taking any kind of cheap shot.  Was just clarifying from the get go so @maligned didn't make the same mistake you did and categorize my thoughts as negative, disruptive, and nothing more than babble.  An understanding of where one is coming from is foundation for any good conversation.....that's all.  If me clarifying this to him caused you any unnecessary duress today then I'm.....well honestly I don't know what to tell ya.

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Relax, it wasn't at all about you, or taking any kind of cheap shot.  Was just clarifying from the get go so @maligned didn't make the same mistake you did and categorize my thoughts as negative, disruptive, and nothing more than babble.  An understanding of where one is coming from is foundation for any good conversation.....that's all.  If me clarifying this to him caused you any unnecessary duress today then I'm.....well honestly I don't know what to tell ya.

It is fine. I understand.

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4 hours ago, cjc007 said:

If they cancelled the Olympics, do you really think they're going to have World's?



Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

[deleted]

Edited by Katie

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3 hours ago, cjc007 said:

If they cancelled the Olympics, do you really think they're going to have World's?



Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

Olympics are a multi-billion dollar, 150+ nation, multi-week behemoth scheduled for July.  Wrestling worlds are on a far smaller scale financially, they are always at the end of the year, and they involve a few athletes from 60-ish countries over one week. Now that there won't be a Worlds in 2021, I definitely think UWW will keep an eye on the evolving crisis, but could easily and quickly put together a 2020 World Championships if things improve in the next few months.

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I think the easiest thing to do is just freeze everything as is, allocate whoever has qualified and let everybody hold their qualifiers for the Olympics next year or later this year.  Maybe hold an unofficial world championship later this year or something for anyone who wants to go.  

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19 hours ago, maligned said:

Olympics are a multi-billion dollar, 150+ nation, multi-week behemoth scheduled for July.  Wrestling worlds are on a far smaller scale financially, they are always at the end of the year, and they involve a few athletes from 60-ish countries over one week. Now that there won't be a Worlds in 2021, I definitely think UWW will keep an eye on the evolving crisis, but could easily and quickly put together a 2020 World Championships if things improve in the next few months.

LOL they cannot even put together a "non-Olympic weight Worlds" with a 12 month notice.

Edited by AHamilton

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It's now official that all earned Olympic bids across all sports will remain in place for next year's Games. A few thoughts and questions:

1. We obviously keep our 4 Greco, 5 men's freestyle, and 6 women's freestyle spots. Will knowing ahead of time that we have 2 Greco spots and a Freestyle spot to earn affect how those two styles adjust the OTT qualification process or final OTT event schedule?

2. I think it's still possible that UWW will take a hard look at scheduling a Worlds near the end of 2020 to replace the 2021 Worlds that won't happen. Scientists are suggesting the most-affected nations are near their Coronavirus apex at the moment (and ones in climates likely to be most affected should see increased cases soon and reach their apex not far in the future)--meaning life should be very different by the summer and certainly 7 or 8 months from now.

3. I would love to see UWW take advantage of the strange year with what would likely be reduced participation in a replacement Worlds event. Maybe rebrand it as a special "World Open" and allow 3 per nation, for example. Maybe require one per nation to be a U23. Let it be more a "festival of wrestling" atmosphere. Still hand out medals, but expect only some of the World's best to be there and open it up a bit.

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7 hours ago, maligned said:

It's now official that all earned Olympic bids across all sports will remain in place for next year's Games. A few thoughts and questions:

1. We obviously keep our 4 Greco, 5 men's freestyle, and 6 women's freestyle spots. Will knowing ahead of time that we have 2 Greco spots and a Freestyle spot to earn affect how those two styles adjust the OTT qualification process or final OTT event schedule?

2. I think it's still possible that UWW will take a hard look at scheduling a Worlds near the end of 2020 to replace the 2021 Worlds that won't happen. Scientists are suggesting the most-affected nations are near their Coronavirus apex at the moment (and ones in climates likely to be most affected should see increased cases soon and reach their apex not far in the future)--meaning life should be very different by the summer and certainly 7 or 8 months from now.

3. I would love to see UWW take advantage of the strange year with what would likely be reduced participation in a replacement Worlds event. Maybe rebrand it as a special "World Open" and allow 3 per nation, for example. Maybe require one per nation to be a U23. Let it be more a "festival of wrestling" atmosphere. Still hand out medals, but expect only some of the World's best to be there and open it up a bit.

The first thing they have to do is reschedule the remaining qualifying and ranking series events.  And after that is done allow nations to complete their respective qualification schedule. Only then can they even think about scheduling any other tournament at all, starting other events already on the schedule,  and unfortunately we’re at a point where we have no idea when we can schedule anything.  

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On 3/24/2020 at 12:24 PM, cjc007 said:

If they cancelled the Olympics, do you really think they're going to have World's?



Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

From a planning perspective it’s night and day.

The Olympics are a much bigger and much more complicated event that involve enormous numbers of visitors arriving into a relatively small area over a relatively short period of time. The worlds for a single sport are much simpler involving far fewer role, though still complicated. 

That being said I’m in the camp that says write 2020 off for all of the good reasons already mentioned. I will add my own thoughts:

1. If they announce a world tournament people will want to enter it and win it. 

2. People who want to enter the tournament will train for it. They have to train well in advance


3. The earlier you start training the more risk getting covid-19. It’s pretty simple. To train you need training partners and you never know who has it but I can think of no better way to get it then to wrestle with someone who has it. 


4. Right now people should be taking the advice I heard last week : “conduct yourself as if you are 1,000 miles from the nearest hospital.”  Because you don’t want to go to an urgent care or hospital right now if you don’t have to. My point is you are at enhanced risk if you get any kind of injury. 
 

This all sets up for enormous inequities across nations and has all of the issues of PEDs, in particular it would incentivize people to train in unsafe situations. It penalizes countries that are hard hit (Iran and the US) vs countries that are less hard hit (as of now Russia). It also favors countries that have centralized and well supported amateur athletics that might favor athletes over civilians in terms of prioritized testing and treatment. 

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