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Mokoma

125 in 2018 could be toughest weight of all time

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4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Hasn't your thing the whol time been that future accomplishments don't increase the greatness of a bracket? Any way, no, it's still 2008 149.

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No I’ve continually said it doesn’t matter what metric we use.  If we don’t count future then 2008 is not that great you know this.  
 

If we want to include future:

149 2008 has 8 champs and 22 AA’s

125 2018 potentially 10 champs (8 plus Lee and Rivera number 1 this year) and 25 AA’s

At that point what metric would favor 149 in 2008?  I can’t think of any.

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You're counting wrestlers two and three times to make your argument. 2008 149 all 8 All Americans that year made an NCAA Final. 6 won NCAA titles. I'm not going to even touch your argument about counting guys being seeded as additional champions.

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6 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You're counting wrestlers two and three times to make your argument. 2008 149 all 8 All Americans that year made an NCAA Final. 6 won NCAA titles. I'm not going to even touch your argument about counting guys being seeded as additional champions.

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I counted 2 titles for Metcalf and Burroughs so I don’t follow what you’re saying. 149 in 2008 had 8 championships.  If Lee, Suriano and Rivera all win next year then 125 in 2018 would have 8 as well.  That is not counting this year when Lee and Rivera were number 1 seeds.

Edited by Mokoma
Added Burroughs

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1 minute ago, Mokoma said:

I counted 2 titles for Metcalf so I don’t follow what you’re saying. 149 in 2008 had 8 championships.  If Lee, Suriano and Rivera all win next year then 125 in 2018 would have 8 as well.  That is not counting this year when Lee and Rivera were number 1 seeds.

Do you feel Lee and Rivera should get no credit at all for this season when counting future accomplishments?  Like they just get the ax as if they didn’t compete or failed to place?

At the end of the day you’re going to count Spencer Lee as a 2 or 3X AA?  That seems very disingenuous.

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5 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Do you feel Lee and Rivera should get no credit at all for this season when counting future accomplishments?  Like they just get the ax as if they didn’t compete or failed to place?

At the end of the day you’re going to count Spencer Lee as a 2 or 3X AA?  That seems very disingenuous.

But if you’re judging the “toughness” of the bracket I don’t think that makes sense since he’s only 1 guy.

I think looking at future accomplishments makes some sense though.  It’s a tough bracket with 4 champs (Lee, Suriano, Cruz, Tomasello) plus another finalist (Lizak), a 3rd (Rivera) and 4th (Picc), with of course Rivera and Picc not given the chance to improve on those finishes this year and Rivera with another year.

Still not as good as 2008 149 though.

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19 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

But if you’re judging the “toughness” of the bracket I don’t think that makes sense since he’s only 1 guy.

I think looking at future accomplishments makes some sense though.  It’s a tough bracket with 4 champs (Lee, Suriano, Cruz, Tomasello) plus another finalist (Lizak), a 3rd (Rivera) and 4th (Picc), with of course Rivera and Picc not given the chance to improve on those finishes this year and Rivera with another year.

Still not as good as 2008 149 though.

You missed a finalist, and much more.  Lee and Suriano still have another year.  My point is although Spencer and Sebastian were not given the chance to be champs this year do you just count them as non placers for the year when comparing the weight classes?  
 

Did you actually compare the weight classes?  2018-125 is likely going to end up with more championships, more AA finishes and more finalists among the Top 8 finishers.
 

 

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50 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

You missed a finalist, and much more.  Lee and Suriano still have another year.  My point is although Spencer and Sebastian were not given the chance to be champs this year do you just count them as non placers for the year when comparing the weight classes?  

Did you actually compare the weight classes?  2018-125 is likely going to end up with more championships, more AA finishes and more finalists among the Top 8 finishers.
 

 

Again, IMO I think the toughness is more a factor of the number of top guys in the bracket than the total number of championships.   A bracket with 6 1x champs would be much tougher to me than one with 2 3x champs. 

So Lee and Suriano are already counted as champs.   No, unfortunately Rivera does not get to be counted as a champ.   

Sorry, forgot Moisey.   Has anyone else in the bracket finished top 4?

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32 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Again, IMO I think the toughness is more a factor of the number of top guys in the bracket than the total number of championships.   A bracket with 6 1x champs would be much tougher to me than one with 2 3x champs. 

So Lee and Suriano are already counted as champs.   No, unfortunately Rivera does not get to be counted as a champ.   

Sorry, forgot Moisey.   Has anyone else in the bracket finished top 4?

Okay so they’re not counted as champs, fair.  Do you just count them as national qualifiers?  Does that seem fair when discussing difficulty of brackets?

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25 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I want to throw out there that if folks are going to count this year towards titles/AA, then I'm adding one to Metcalf for the travesty that was his transfer situation.

So you think Spencer is currently 2X champion and 1 time NQ when discussing his value?

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Brent Metcalf, Iowa [1] Will Rowe, Oklahoma Don Fisch, Rider Kurt Kinser, Indiana Lance Palmer, Ohio State [9] Kyle Larson, Oregon State David Jauregui, West Virginia Jake Patacsil, Purdue [8] Josh Churella, Michigan [5] Ryan Adams, North Dakota State Nick Pickerell, Northern Iowa Morgan Atkinson, Cal State-Fullerton [12] Lucas Espericueta, Stanford Ed McCray, Gardner-Webb Cesar Grajales, Pennsylvania Jordan Burroughs, Nebraska [4] Brent Metcalf Fall 1:49 Kurt Kinser Fall 1:32 Lance Palmer 14-3 Jake Patacsil TF 16-0, 5:17 Josh Churella 11-2 Morgan Atkinson 8-5 Ed McCray Fall 1:19 Jordan Burroughs 4-1 Brent Metcalf 10-5 Lance Palmer 14-6 Josh Churella 5-1 Jordan Burroughs TF 21-5, 5:00 Brent Metcalf 3-2 Jordan Burroughs 3-2 Brent Metcalf 14-8 149 Weight Class Brent Metcalf 8-4 J.P. O'Connor, Harvard [3] Joseph Knox, Tennessee-Chattanooga Eric Medina, Maryland Daryl Cocozzo, Edinboro Ryan Lang, Northwestern [11] Matt Fittery, Lock Haven Bryce Saddoris, Navy Bubba Jenkins, Penn State [6] Darrion Caldwell, North Carolina State [7] Michael Roberts, Boston University Brandon Carter, Central Michigan Scott Ervin, Appalachian State [10] Mitch Mueller, Iowa State Anthony Constantino, Columbia Adam Hall, Boise State Dustin Schlatter, Minnesota [2] J.P. O'Connor 14-4 Daryl Cocozzo 8-4 Ryan Lang 11-4 Bubba Jenkins 15-5 Darrion Caldwell Fall 2:28 Brandon Carter 5-3 Mitch Mueller 12-3 Dustin Schlatter 5-3 J.P. O'Connor 5-0 Bubba Jenkins 4-3 Darrion Caldwell Fall 0:42 Dustin Schlatter 6-2 Bubba Jenkins 5-3 Darrion Caldwell 4-1 Bubba Jenkins 12-8

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12 minutes ago, leshismore said:

Yes, 149 2008--really easy weight.149.JPG.f069e22162d566d9bc2c07ea70734d71.JPG

Going into the tournament it didn’t really have much returning.  It was wide open and no one knew what was going to happen, but it’s not very high on an all time scale for accomplishments going into the tourney.

It was exciting, and those guys mostly all went on to become great, but besides Schlatter (who was clearly a shell of himself in that tourney) this weight didn’t return nearly as much as a lot of others.  Recently 125 in 2018 and 133 in 2019 returned so much more.

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2 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Okay so they’re not counted as champs, fair.  Do you just count them as national qualifiers?  Does that seem fair when discussing difficulty of brackets?

Who is “them”?   Picc probably wasn’t winning this year and Rivera had probably a less than 50% chance.   They’ve already been top 4 finishers which is what I counted them as.

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2 hours ago, Mokoma said:

So you think Spencer is currently 2X champion and 1 time NQ when discussing his value?

Yes. Facts are facts. As $HlTTY as it is... he will not be a 4xer, unless they allow him a 5th(he has not R/S so perhaps?).

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4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Who is “them”?   Picc probably wasn’t winning this year and Rivera had probably a less than 50% chance.   They’ve already been top 4 finishers which is what I counted them as.

All 3 of them in the 125 2018 bracket, Lee, Rivera and Piccininni.  You’re right they wouldn’t have all won but 1 probably would have and the other 2 probably both finish top 4.

This hurts the overall “quality” of that bracket and it shouldn’t.  
 

A lot of the reason 149 in 2008 is viewed as so tough is because Burroughs won 2 titles after this year then dominated the world for awhile, while Caldwell, O’Conner, and Jenkins all later won titles. 
 

If Rivera had won the title this year that would make 5 different champs Lee, Tomasello, Cruz, Suriano and Rivera.

If on the off chance Picc upset Lee then it would make 6 champs matching the 149 2008 bracket for total different champs while it easily surpassed it in total AA’s amongst the top 8 when it’s all said and done.

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Three 125lb seasons that currently seem tougher than 2018 are listed below.  

 

2009 - 4 unique champions with 25 total AAs across top 8.

Bracket has 10 more AAs by NQs Ode Blanc, Bernard Futrell, Charlie Falck, Jarrod Garnett, Nikko Triggas, James Nicholson, Steve Bonanno

Year Weight Place Name College AA Count Best Place Worst Place Last AA Year First AA Year
2009 125 1 Troy Nickerson Cornell 4 1 4 2010 2006
2009 125 2 Paul Donahoe Edinboro 3 1 3 2009 2007
2009 125 3 Brandon Precin Northwestern 3 3 7 2011 2008
2009 125 4 Anthony Robles Arizona State 3 1 7 2011 2009
2009 125 5 Angel Escobedo Indiana 4 1 5 2010 2007
2009 125 6 Zachary Sanders Minnesota 4 3 6 2012 2009
2009 125 7 Scott Sentes Central Michigan 2 4 7 2011 2009
2009 125 8 Nic Bedelyon Kent State 2 6 8 2012 2009

 

2007 - 4 unique champions with 25 total AAs across top 8.

Bracket has 5 more AAs by NQs Brandon Precin, Mark McKnight, Nick Fanthorpe

Year Weight Place Name College AA Count Best Place Worst Place Last AA Year First AA Year
2007 125 1 Paul Donahoe Nebraska 3 1 3 2009 2007
2007 125 2 Sam Hazewinkel Oklahoma 4 2 3 2007 2004
2007 125 3 Troy Nickerson Cornell 4 1 4 2010 2006
2007 125 4 Angel Escobedo Indiana 4 1 5 2010 2007
2007 125 5 Jayson Ness Minnesota 4 1 5 2010 2007
2007 125 6 Ode Blanc Lock Haven 1 6 6 2007 2007
2007 125 7 Tanner Gardner Stanford 3 5 8 2008 2006
2007 125 8 Charlie Falck Iowa 2 6 8 2008 2007


 

2006 - 3 unique champions with 25 total AAs across top 8.

Bracket has 6 more AAs by NQs Paul Donahoe, Kyle Ott, Ode Blanc.  Note that Paul Donahoe was a 3xAA and National Champion that DNP.

Year Weight Place Name College AA Count Best Place Worst Place Last AA Year First AA Year
2006 125 1 Joe Dubuque Indiana 3 1 8 2006 2004
2006 125 2 Troy Nickerson Cornell 4 1 4 2010 2006
2006 125 3 Sam Hazewinkel Oklahoma 4 2 3 2007 2004
2006 125 4 Nick Simmons Michigan State 4 3 7 2007 2003
2006 125 5 Coleman Scott Oklahoma State 4 1 8 2008 2005
2006 125 6 Chad Mendes Cal Poly-SLO 2 2 6 2008 2006
2006 125 7 John Velez Northwestern 1 7 7 2006 2006
2006 125 8 Tanner Gardner Stanford 3 5 8 2008 2006

 

2018 - 4 unique champions with 20 total AAs across top 8. Potential for 5 more AA and 1 more unique champion

Bracket has 2 more AAs by NQs RayVon Foley and Sean Russell.

Year Weight Place Name College AA Count Best Place Worst Place Last AA Year First AA Year
2018 125 1 Spencer Lee Iowa 2 1 1 2019 2018
2018 125 2 Nick Suriano Rutgers 2 1 2 2019 2018
2018 125 3 Nathan Tomasello Ohio State 4 1 3 2018 2015
2018 125 4 Ethan Lizak Minnesota 3 2 7 2019 2017
2018 125 5 Darian Cruz Lehigh 3 1 7 2018 2014
2018 125 6 Sebastian Rivera Northwestern 2 3 6 2019 2018
2018 125 7 Ronnie Bresser Oregon State 2 7 8 2019 2018
2018 125 8 Zeke Moisey West Virginia 2 2 8 2018 2015
Edited by jross

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On 3/25/2020 at 12:00 PM, 1032004 said:

But if you’re judging the “toughness” of the bracket I don’t think that makes sense since he’s only 1 guy.

I think looking at future accomplishments makes some sense though.  It’s a tough bracket with 4 champs (Lee, Suriano, Cruz, Tomasello) plus another finalist (Lizak), a 3rd (Rivera) and 4th (Picc), with of course Rivera and Picc not given the chance to improve on those finishes this year and Rivera with another year.

Still not as good as 2008 149 though.

Too bad for Picc, I thought he had an excellent chance of making the finals this year (think he was 50/50 on beating Glory).

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3 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Too bad for Picc, I thought he had an excellent chance of making the finals this year (think he was 50/50 on beating Glory).

Agreed, that was definitely a toss up.  

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