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Who Would Be In Your Mount Rushmore for College Wrestling

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13 minutes ago, Katie said:

I’m not sure Gable influenced folkstyle more than those who developed the rule set or popularized it to the point that the NCAA decided to sponsor it as a sport.

Arguing that Gable influenced folkstyle more than the sport’s founders seems to me like arguing that JFK influenced the US more than Washington and Jefferson did.

I also believe Lincoln was a state-level politician and a member of the House of Reps who won two presidential elections (one during a civil war), and who was assassinated shortly into his second term. 

All true, but I'm not seeing a point. 

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15 minutes ago, Bigboi Trained said:

It’s crazy I don’t see many Jordan Burroughs. He has been the face of USA wrestling the last 8 years or so. I would say he propelled the us freestyle team resurgence also. Jordan has to be on this list. Cael of course. Then I don’t care who afterwards there are lots of other guys. I have a problem with picking guys before everyone we’re allowed to compete. 

In terms of absolute skill, including both folkstyle and freestyle, I would personally rank Burroughs #2, and would be open to an argument that he’s #1. (Disclaimer, I am a JB fan.)

Absolute skill, of course, heavily favors contemporary wrestlers who have access to the most advanced technique and training methods. Watch some old wrestling matches — either folk or free — and you’ll see what I mean. 

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7 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Let's be real. Washington is greatest.  Other 2 understandable.  But teddy doesn't belong 

FDR is could live with. 

Teddy created the park system that houses it.  That was very progressive. Rushmore was started before FDR was president. 

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Personally, and I know it depends on the criteria, but my list to at least choose from, would include Dave Schultz. I know he's not a 4 time NCAA Champion, or a 6 time world and Olympic champion, but he  won the Great Plains Open as senior in high school, pinning a 2 time NCAA Champion who also won the OW award his senior year, this qualifying Schultz to wrestle in the Tblisi Tounament that year (perhaps the toughest tournament in the world back then).  When he got home he went up two wt. clases to wrestle in the state meet and won it pinning his way to the finals and winning 12-1 in the finals match. He went on to become a 3 time all-american/NCAA Champion, won the Tblisi Tournament, was a World and Olympic Champion, was a 7 time world and Olympic Medalist and more.  But to me, he was a great ambassador to our sport, much like Dan Gable, John Smith and now Jordan Burroughs.  Dave would be on my short list to include in the Mt. Rushmore of wrestling.  In addition to all of that, he was a tremendous technician and innovator of technique in our sport, and was very good at teaching it to others.  I also just read, that his senior year at the Tblisi tournament, he was second as a senior in high school and also won the U. S. National Open Greco-Roman Championship and won the most falls in the least time award.  This would be the first of 10 national titles for him.

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37 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Let's be real. Washington is greatest.  Other 2 understandable.  But teddy doesn't belong 

FDR is could live with. 

Agree that Teddy Roosevelt doesn’t belong. I think Washington, Lincoln, and FDR absolutely belong in the top four.

The last spot would go to one of Jefferson, Jackson, or Reagan. Without looking into it, my gut tells me Jefferson. 

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

If we're not talking about who the four best college wrestlers were since 1928, and are instead talking about which four wrestlers shaped college wrestling the most, you run into a few difficulties.

  • First, it would take a historian to determine who, if anyone, had the most impact on the folkstyle rule set.
  • Second, it would take a historian to determine who, if anyone, had the most impact on popularizing folkstyle to the point that the NCAA sponsored it as a sport.
  • Third, for a lot of high profile wrestlers and coaches, it may not not be possible to separate their freestyle impact from their folkstyle impact.

For all I know, college wrestling's George Washington is British sports aficionado JG Chambers and its Thomas Jefferson is professional wrestler Frank Gotch.

I'd add that if Mount Rushmore itself is supposed to identify the four most impactful presidents in US history, it is out of date. At this point, there is no way you can deny FDR a spot in the top four most impactful presidents. 

yeah fdr was the only 4 time champ

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

I’m not sure Gable influenced folkstyle more than those who developed the rule set or popularized it to the point that the NCAA decided to sponsor it as a sport.

Arguing that Gable influenced folkstyle more than the sport’s founders seems to me like arguing that JFK influenced the US more than Washington and Jefferson did.

I also believe Lincoln was a state-level politician and a member of the House of Reps who won two presidential elections (one during a civil war), and who was assassinated shortly into his second term. 

i would argue that JFK influenced the US as much as the other two, just look at us now, the great society

im not sure if its a question of influencing folkstyle... or influencing the people as far as gable is concerned.

you note i put gallagher in there

lincoln was a multiple time loser....  yet persevered 

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54 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

Personally, and I know it depends on the criteria, but my list to at least choose from, would include Dave Schultz. I know he's not a 4 time NCAA Champion, or a 6 time world and Olympic champion, but he  won the Great Plains Open as senior in high school, pinning a 2 time NCAA Champion who also won the OW award his senior year, this qualifying Schultz to wrestle in the Tblisi Tounament that year (perhaps the toughest tournament in the world back then).  When he got home he went up two wt. clases to wrestle in the state meet and won it pinning his way to the finals and winning 12-1 in the finals match. He went on to become a 3 time all-american/NCAA Champion, won the Tblisi Tournament, was a World and Olympic Champion, was a 7 time world and Olympic Medalist and more.  But to me, he was a great ambassador to our sport, much like Dan Gable, John Smith and now Jordan Burroughs.  Dave would be on my short list to include in the Mt. Rushmore of wrestling.  In addition to all of that, he was a tremendous technician and innovator of technique in our sport, and was very good at teaching it to others.  I also just read, that his senior year at the Tblisi tournament, he was second as a senior in high school and also won the U. S. National Open Greco-Roman Championship and won the most falls in the least time award.  This would be the first of 10 national titles for him.

i can't believe i forgot shultz when talking about influence.

Gallagher

Gable

Hodge 

Schulz

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34 minutes ago, Katie said:

Agree that Teddy Roosevelt doesn’t belong. I think Washington, Lincoln, and FDR absolutely belong in the top four.

The last spot would go to one of Jefferson, Jackson, or Reagan. Without looking into it, my gut tells me Jefferson. 

Jefferson a founding father, in.

not sure about either Roosevelt, FDR threw the founding fathers thoughts in the trash bin.

JFK might be better than jackson or reagan.  

JFK sowed the seeds for the civil rights movement which Johnson saw thru

 

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46 minutes ago, Katie said:

Agree that Teddy Roosevelt doesn’t belong. I think Washington, Lincoln, and FDR absolutely belong in the top four.

The last spot would go to one of Jefferson, Jackson, or Reagan. Without looking into it, my gut tells me Jefferson. 

Not on topic but did you watch history channel special about Washington?

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11 minutes ago, GockeS said:

Jefferson a founding father, in.

not sure about either Roosevelt, FDR threw the founding fathers thoughts in the trash bin.

JFK might be better than jackson or reagan.  

JFK sowed the seeds for the civil rights movement which Johnson saw thru

 

I don't think JFK had the opportunity to be a great President.  He was robbed of it.  Our stature in the world and economy better under Reagan but since he is relatively recent he is too divisive.  Fdr helped economy but made Gov much bigger. Still he led us through great depression and ww2 even though Truman dropped bomb.  Fdr also served 3 terms which provably not good idea. 

If we count the person's significance overall we gotta say Adam's over Jefferson and possibly Jackson.  

We all should agree on Washington and Lincoln.  In my opinion Washington was greatest Anerican in history. 

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

Mokomo saying he only considered Stieber a 2 time champ started it- that was the base. And I don't understand how you could think Ramos won that 

Did I say Ramos won? Why are you pulling me into an arguement im not part of? Are you unable to stand on your own 2 feet?

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

Did I say Ramos won? Why are you pulling me into an arguement im not part of? Are you unable to stand on your own 2 feet?

I am officially asking your opinion.  Do you think Ramos was robbed or do you think at the very least STiever can rightly be called 3 timer?

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On 3/27/2020 at 2:01 PM, TobusRex said:

That's why I'd put Dan Hodge on any American "Mount Rushmore" for wrestling before Gable. On the other hand Gable trained several world champs in addition to winning a **** ton of titles at Iowa.

As for Uetake, who was a better wrestler than Gable (btw): he's Japanese and as good as he was doesn't belong on Mount Rushmore. Mount Fuji, on the other hand.....

You guys are a little late they finished the first one decades ago.

When Hodge saw the pin ratio for the 3x undefeated NC Earl McCready even Dan agreed he should be on the mountain.  Plus who wouldn't want that face blasted into rock

image.jpeg.961f3e522b7e1d474b42b14131feab34.jpeg

well a third of the way thru the blasting phase they found out he was Canadian so went with the next best probably better option.  Dick Hutton 4x undefeated NC, well sure there was that one NC final tie with a questionable ref decision, but who wouldn't rather be the first 4x undefeated with a questionable tie/loss versus be a guy with like 50 fantasy loses to a Unicorn.  Plus his profile fit the already blasted areas. 

 image.jpeg.08077aebd5ee8fd195ce937daf450aad.jpeg

There were a lot of great wrestles in the 60s/70s but they had a problem, seems all the ACME Corp dynamite was being hoarded by some character in Arizona, said he was bird hunting - go figure.  Well the 80s came along, dynamite became available again and it was pretty obvious John Smith would be the next project. Ok they let him age a bit before started the blasting, that first profile would just look goofy on a mountain, second one marginally better. 

image.jpeg.bb18fab7ad1f8f7bfdd2b10f3676b4f9.jpegJohn Smith - Head Coach - Staff Directory - Oklahoma State ...

Next project, obviously Cael Sanderson, what a great profile, almost like already in rock.   They had the blue prints and dynamite plans all in place and he lost his hair, had to start over, should be complete in 10 years.

The Daily Dose | Sports Culture, History, Nostalgia, Factsimage.jpeg.cf94035cf51d2100b50997127bd07bf4.jpeg

The final one has not yet started (so small chance someone from above could still make the mountain) but its Kyle Dake.  Why you ask?  Well because "Dake is Dake."  Plan was to start blasting in September after he wins Olympics so now considering waiting till fall 2021 to start.  They are also still considering with or without the glasses.  

Discussion Points: Kyle Dake going Greco in New York | Latest News ...

 

Sorry guys the mountain is full.   :)

Edited by ionel

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3 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I don't think JFK had the opportunity to be a great President.  He was robbed of it.  Our stature in the world and economy better under Reagan but since he is relatively recent he is too divisive.  Fdr helped economy but made Gov much bigger. Still he led us through great depression and ww2 even though Truman dropped bomb.  Fdr also served 3 terms which provably not good idea. 

If we count the person's significance overall we gotta say Adam's over Jefferson and possibly Jackson.  

We all should agree on Washington and Lincoln.  In my opinion Washington was greatest Anerican in history. 

Jefferson and all his work prior to being president.

JFK didn't even have the opportunity.. just like you said.. .and was still extremely influential.

Adams maybe...

still a no on FDR even tho he was 4 time champ

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4 minutes ago, ionel said:

You guys are a little late they finished the first one decades ago.

When Hodge saw the pin ratio for the 3x undefeated NC Early McCready even Dan agreed he should be on the mountain.  Plus who wouldn't want that face blasted into rock

image.jpeg.961f3e522b7e1d474b42b14131feab34.jpeg

well a third of the way thru the blasting phase they found out he was Canadian so went with the next best probably better option.  Dick Hutton 4x undefeated NC, well sure there was that one NC final tie with a questionable ref decision, but who wouldn't rather be the first 4x undefeated with a questionable tie/loss versus be a guy with like 50 fantasy loses to a Unicorn.  Plus his profile fit the already blasted areas. 

 image.jpeg.08077aebd5ee8fd195ce937daf450aad.jpeg

There were a lot of great wrestles in the 60s/70s but they had a problem, seems all the ACME Corp dynamite was being hoarded by some character in Arizona, said he was bird hunting - go figure.  Well the 80s came along, dynamite became available again and it was pretty obvious John Smith would be the next project. Ok they let him age a bit before started the blasting, that first profile would just look goofy on a mountain, second one marginally better. 

image.jpeg.bb18fab7ad1f8f7bfdd2b10f3676b4f9.jpegJohn Smith - Head Coach - Staff Directory - Oklahoma State ...

Next project, obviously Cael Sanderson, what a great profile, almost like already in rock.   They had the blue prints and dynamite plans all in place and he lost his hair, had to start over, should be complete in 10 years.

The Daily Dose | Sports Culture, History, Nostalgia, Factsimage.jpeg.cf94035cf51d2100b50997127bd07bf4.jpeg

The final one has not yet started (so small chance someone from above could still make the mountain) but its Kyle Dake.  Why you ask?  Well because "Dake is Dake."  Plan was to start blasting in September after he wins Olympics so now considering waiting till fall 2021 to start.  They are also still considering with or without the glasses.  

Discussion Points: Kyle Dake going Greco in New York | Latest News ...

 

Sorry guys the mountain is full.   :)

you had me until dake

i love kid dynamite... but he is the barack obama... someone who came later after the trails were blazed

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

you had me until dake

i love kid dynamite... but he is the barack obama... someone who came later after the trails were blazed

like I said, that one can still change but "Dake is Dake" so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Wrestling my Rushmore:

I will leave out older guys because I am ignorant.  My list is from the eyes of someone who has kept track only last 15 yrs. 

1) Gable has to be on it.  Gable is the name even non wrestling fans know 

2) Sanderson.  Going undefeated and coaching super teams at penn st. 

Those 2 have to be on list. Probably last two should be founding fathers of USA wrestling or hodge.  But since I an ignorant I will give 2 names from my era. 

3) Smith 

4) I really think some 3 times like snyder, bo, or cox are more deserving than some 4 timers especially since dake has losing record vs. Burroughs.  I think snyder winning gold before junior season and defeating Cox would make him just as credible than anyone else.  I will say Snyder.  But in reality should go to older person who was foundational for USA wrestling 

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2 hours ago, Katie said:

I’m not sure Gable influenced folkstyle more than those who developed the rule set or popularized it to the point that the NCAA decided to sponsor it as a sport.

Arguing that Gable influenced folkstyle more than the sport’s founders seems to me like arguing that JFK influenced the US more than Washington and Jefferson did.

I also believe Lincoln was a state-level politician and a member of the House of Reps who won two presidential elections (one during a civil war), and who was assassinated shortly into his second term. 

That’s a dumb argument.  Outside of Oklahoma and Iowa, who knew much about collegiate wrestling before the 60’s.  My western Pa youth program started in 1972.  Hmmm, wonder why that was?? 

I’m guessing you never wrestled!?  As a result, you can’t understand what Gable meant to young wrestlers in the 70’s, 80 and 90’s.  Ask Lee Kemp who made him want to be an NCAA & World Champ. Ask the Brands.  Gable had a ripple effect that has carried on to this generation of wrestlers.

If the founders of the sport deserve more credit than Gable for nationalizing collegiate wrestling, then surely Thomas Paine deserves to be on Mt Rushmore more so than Jefferson or Lincoln.  

 

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2 hours ago, Katie said:

Agree that Teddy Roosevelt doesn’t belong. I think Washington, Lincoln, and FDR absolutely belong in the top four.

The last spot would go to one of Jefferson, Jackson, or Reagan. Without looking into it, my gut tells me Jefferson. 

Jackson? Who am I hanging out with here? Deviants

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