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Spencer Lee Wins Hodge Trophy

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4 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

I'll tell you what - I'll meet you half way. Perhaps the Hodge trophy should not have even been awarded at all since the NCAA championships never took place. I for one wanted to see Lee vs Glory and or Lee vs Mueller. I'm happy for Lee but it means nothing to Mee.

Would have loved to see those matches too, amongst others, and yes I’m happy for Lee.

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Moore had 4 matches where he won by 3 points or less. Jake Woodley took him to OT and he beat Kordell Norfleet by 2 points in both their matches (in one of which Norfleet scored 9 points en route to an 11-9 loss). 

If you’re going to knock Spencer for his light schedule then you need to shine some light on Moore’s schedule. Only top 5 guy (flo rankings) he faced was #5 Schultz and he won 2 matches by a combined 7 points. Nothing to sneeze at but not the most compelling Hodge resume. He never saw Adams, Darmstadt or Aeillo during the season. 

The only plausible argument for not giving it to Spencer is that he’s disqualified because he only wrestled 18 matches and got injured at Midlands. If you think that means he’s ineligible then we just disagree but that’s your prerogative. And I’m not an Iowa fan.

I have nothing against him whatsoever, but IMO Moore would’ve been the weakest Hodge winner I can remember. He’s a very, very good wrestler and probably would’ve won a championship this year, but look at the name’s on that list and tell me he belongs. Now look again and tell me Spencer doesn’t.

 

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question for those thinking it should go to moore - if NCAAs would have happened and both moore and lee would have won out, lets say each of them gets bonus in their first three matches and regular decisions after, would you still have wanted moore to win the trophy over lee?  a one-time NCAA champ over a three time NCAA champ?

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I have little doubt Lee is the best wrestler in college right now, but I thought the whole point of the Hodge was giving it to whoever had the most pins, like the Gorrarian at NCAAs. That being the case there were a lot of people with more falls than Spencer Lee had this year.  I know the criteria has been adjusted to reflect "dominance" but that stinks to high heaven of "participation trophy" antics, to me.

That said, since Lee will likely not be a 4 time champ now, it's good that he got a consolation prize.

Edited by TobusRex

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2 minutes ago, Witherman said:

question for those thinking it should go to moore - if NCAAs would have happened and both moore and lee would have won out, lets say each of them gets bonus in their first three matches and regular decisions after, would you still have wanted moore to win the trophy over lee?  a one-time NCAA champ over a three time NCAA champ?

si signore

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1 minute ago, TobusRex said:

I have little doubt Lee is the best wrestler in college right now, but I thought the whole point of the Hodge was giving it to whoever had the most pins, like the Gorrarian at NCAAs. That being the case there were a lot of people with more falls than Spencer Lee had this year.  I know the criteria has been adjusted to reflect "dominance" but that stinks to high heaven of "participation trophy" antics, to me.

and Lee did not participate in the NCAA tournament and chose to unparticipate in Midlands.   If a 5 year old stays home to watch cartoons does he still get the Saturday morning soccer participation trophy

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1 minute ago, ionel said:

and Lee did not participate in the NCAA tournament and chose to unparticipate in Midlands.   If a 5 year old stays home to watch cartoons does he still get the Saturday morning soccer participation trophy

If we can’t say for sure they were home watching cartoons

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Just now, ionel said:

and Lee did not participate in the NCAA tournament and chose to unparticipate in Midlands.   If a 5 year old stays home to watch cartoons does he still get the Saturday morning soccer participation trophy

Meh, the Midlands is nothing. Used to be great, now it's just Iowa kicking the crap out of a bunch of tier 3 wrestling schools and a couple B1G schools (and a few others, of course). That said, I was very disappointed at Lee's extremely light schedule this year. We'll have to get used to it though.

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2 minutes ago, ionel said:

and Lee did not participate in the NCAA tournament and chose to unparticipate in Midlands.   If a 5 year old stays home to watch cartoons does he still get the Saturday morning soccer participation trophy

And I wouldn’t call it a participation trophy

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17 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

I'll tell you what - I'll meet you half way. Perhaps the Hodge trophy should not have even been awarded at all since the NCAA championships never took place. I for one wanted to see Lee vs Glory and or Lee vs Mueller. I'm happy for Lee but it means nothing to Mee.

Yes, it should be Lee or no one. If it's someone, it's Lee.

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43 minutes ago, Perry said:

Probably not but they also didn't have 4 point nearfall to work with 

A lot of his matches ended by tech fall. With a 3 point near fall then a match that went 17-0

First period: 2 take down, 4 near fall, 4 more near fall  (10)
Second period: Escape, takedown, 4 near fall (7)

Would have gone 17-0

First period: 2 take down, 3 near fall, 3 more near fall  (8)
Second period: Escape, takedown, 3 near fall, 3 near fall (9)

Even if he only scored 3 vs 4 in all near falls and got no extra nearfalls and if 200 of his 234 points were from nearfalls then he would have outscored his opponents 184-18.

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Makes me laugh that some still want to point to missing a match the week immediately prior to the US Senior Nationals where he hoped to qualify for the US Olympic Trials and he missed matches the week after he won the US Senior Nationals where he blew through a bracket with 6 former NCAA Champions, a World Jr. Silver medalist and a host of other All-Americans.  Also, don't forget that Tom Brands announced that he would miss matches on both weekends prior to the season even starting.   I guess those of you that hold that opinion are in the distinct minority, since Intermat stated that his margin of victory in the voting was one of the largest margins ever amongst the voting panel and he also won the popular vote by taking 58% of the total votes among the 8 finalists.   His bonus point percentage is only second to Caels 95% and he had a bonus percentage of 94%.   Rather than try to tear down a young mans accomplishments, I'll just echo what the obvious vast majority are saying today--well done Spencer Lee.  

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16 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

A lot of his matches ended by tech fall. With a 3 point near fall then a match that went 17-0

First period: 2 take down, 4 near fall, 4 more near fall  (10)
Second period: Escape, takedown, 4 near fall (7)

Would have gone 17-0

First period: 2 take down, 3 near fall, 3 more near fall  (8)
Second period: Escape, takedown, 3 near fall, 3 near fall (9)

Even if he only scored 3 vs 4 in all near falls and got no extra nearfalls and if 200 of his 234 points were from nearfalls then he would have outscored his opponents 184-18.

Remember, many of this matches were tech falls in the first and second period, so I'm certain he would have gotten another turn or two to score the same number of points.  It's not as if he was getting the final turn as the buzzer hit zero:-). 

Edited by mistydawn

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1 hour ago, Witherman said:

sorry I didn't know the hodge trophy was awarded based on most matches wrestled without losing?

moore had 5 matches that were decided by 4 points or less.  spencer's closest match was 7 points.  multiple bonus point victories over the top competition.

Spencer also decided not to wrestle in his 2 toughest matches and 3 of his top 4.

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

TheMat article says, "the two-time national champion outscored opponents by a whopping 234-18 margin." Has any Hodge winner matched this score differential? Maybe Cael.

Spencer Lee:  18-0, 4 pins, 234-18

Kyle Dake:  37-0, 18 pins, 150-22, including Northeast Duals, Las Vegas, Grapple at the Garden (Missouri, Okla State), Southern Scuffle, National Duals (Nebraska, Iowa), EIWA, and NCAAs (where he outscored opponents 34-4; the only points given up to Taylor, of course).  Ridiculously harder schedule.  He wasn't on the mat long enough in 18 matches to run up his point total.  Left off the 9-3 win over #11 Hamlin...at 174.

To answer your explicit question, probably not.  The follow-up question would be:  has any Hodge winner had as weak a schedule?  I mean, two guys (Schroder and Piccinninni) ranked in the top 10 (per wrestlestat) the whole year?

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Probably every Hodge candidate-- and every top wrestler-- had a relatively easy schedule this year simply because they would have hd 3 or 4 tough matches at the NCAA tournament that they wound up not having.

By the same token, all the Hodge candidates underachieved since none of them won (or even placed in) the NCAA tournament.

So it's really folly to say Lee is undeserving b/c he had a weak schedule. Everyone is undeserving for the same reason.

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9 minutes ago, klehner said:

Spencer Lee:  18-0, 4 pins, 234-18

Kyle Dake:  37-0, 18 pins, 150-22, including Northeast Duals, Las Vegas, Grapple at the Garden (Missouri, Okla State), Southern Scuffle, National Duals (Nebraska, Iowa), EIWA, and NCAAs (where he outscored opponents 34-4; the only points given up to Taylor, of course).  Ridiculously harder schedule.  He wasn't on the mat long enough in 18 matches to run up his point total.  Left off the 9-3 win over #11 Hamlin...at 174.

To answer your explicit question, probably not.  The follow-up question would be:  has any Hodge winner had as weak a schedule?  I mean, two guys (Schroder and Piccinninni) ranked in the top 10 (per wrestlestat) the whole year?

Why is that a "follow up" question? It's just another question. Dake was a better pinner than Lee. Lee might be better than Dake at everything else. (And I love Dake!)

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1 hour ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Of course the Iowa fans here are all over this. Good for Spencer but it should have been MOORE. 

And of course the typical Iowa haters are all over this trying to come up with every argument to not give the most dominate wrestler award to the most dominant wrestler lol.

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25 minutes ago, klehner said:

Spencer Lee:  18-0, 4 pins, 234-18

Kyle Dake:  37-0, 18 pins, 150-22, including Northeast Duals, Las Vegas, Grapple at the Garden (Missouri, Okla State), Southern Scuffle, National Duals (Nebraska, Iowa), EIWA, and NCAAs (where he outscored opponents 34-4; the only points given up to Taylor, of course).  Ridiculously harder schedule.  He wasn't on the mat long enough in 18 matches to run up his point total.  Left off the 9-3 win over #11 Hamlin...at 174.

To answer your explicit question, probably not.  The follow-up question would be:  has any Hodge winner had as weak a schedule?  I mean, two guys (Schroder and Piccinninni) ranked in the top 10 (per wrestlestat) the whole year?

question

how many bonus point wins did dake have over top ten guys? 

just a question

do i think if dake and lee were in the same class lee would win? NO.

dake is clearly the hodge winner of the two.  

but this season, i think its not really clear...but clear enough that lee deserves the award

how many top 10 matches does moore have?

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7 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Why is that a "follow up" question? It's just another question. Dake was a better pinner than Lee. Lee might be better than Dake at everything else. (And I love Dake!)

It is the follow-up question because it directly relates to his point scoring differential.  Compare Dake's 34-4 differential *at the NCAAs* to Lee's against really inferior competition.

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10 minutes ago, klehner said:

It is the follow-up question because it directly relates to his point scoring differential.  Compare Dake's 34-4 differential *at the NCAAs* to Lee's against really inferior competition.

you could make the same (even stronger) argument against Moore (which is who you are all saying it should go to if not Lee)

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