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Spencer Lee Wins Hodge Trophy

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To those complaining about a week schedule, it's not his fault that Penn State, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State, and others and didn't have someone good at his weight.  Iowa wrestled most of the top ten teams in the country this year.  I don't like that he defaulted out of Midlands, but I don't have a problem with him winning the Hodge either, just like I wouldn't have had a problem with Moore winning.  

Edited by Nutterbutter

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3 minutes ago, Nutterbutter said:

To those complaining about a week schedule, it's not his fault that Penn State, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State, and others and didn't have someone good at his weight.  Iowa wrestled most of the top ten teams in the country this year.  I don't like that he defaulted out of Midlands, but I don't have a problem with him winning the Hodge either, just like I wouldn't have had a problem with Moore winning.  

I don't think he defaulted out of Midlands, he just didn't go.

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18 minutes ago, GockeS said:

question

how many bonus point wins did dake have over top ten guys? 

just a question

do i think if dake and lee were in the same class lee would win? NO.

dake is clearly the hodge winner of the two.  

but this season, i think its not really clear...but clear enough that lee deserves the award

how many top 10 matches does moore have?

As far as I could find, his record against top 10 guys was like (all rankings at the time)

#7 5-0

#8 6-0

#3 4-1

#8 pin

#10 pin

#8 13-0

#4 2-0

#2 5-4

My post was about point scoring differential, not who was the most worthy winner.

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20 hours ago, NJDan said:

TheMat article says, "the two-time national champion outscored opponents by a whopping 234-18 margin." Has any Hodge winner matched this score differential? Maybe Cael.

Before the Hodge existed, when he wasn't winning by pin, the 1981 NCAA - Most Outstanding wrestler Gene Mills won four matches by pinfall.  His semifinal match went to decision where Gene won 28-4.  He won his 1979 semifinals match 17-2.  Hearsay is that beat people in college by 40 points.  He claims (flowrestling) to have scored over 70 points twice while trying to score 100.

This  'Uncrowned King' article is a good read on Gene Mills.

Edited by jross

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13 minutes ago, Witherman said:

you could make the same (even stronger) argument against Moore (which is who you are all saying it should go to if not Lee)

Not "all" are saying that.

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2 hours ago, tec87 said:

Moore 27-0

Lee 18-0 in ncaa and 5-0 at senior open freestyle beating 2 former ncaa champs. So 23-0 total. That’s not bad at all. 
 

Lee defaulted out of the semis in midlands and missed one dual. Let’s not act like he only wrestled half the season.

This is a college wrestling award therefore the senior national wins do not count. Snyder never won the Hodge because he chose international over college. Lee had a chance to wrestle the 2 seed twice and failed to show each time. Don’t reward not showing up. 

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13 minutes ago, Nutterbutter said:

To those complaining about a week schedule, it's not his fault that Penn State, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State, and others and didn't have someone good at his weight.  Iowa wrestled most of the top ten teams in the country this year.  I don't like that he defaulted out of Midlands, but I don't have a problem with him winning the Hodge either, just like I wouldn't have had a problem with Moore winning.  

Guess I'm forgetting stuff. I don't remember Lee defaulting out at Midlands this last year, but I do remember his FR year.

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11 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

This is a college wrestling award therefore the senior national wins do not count. Snyder never won the Hodge because he chose international over college. Lee had a chance to wrestle the 2 seed twice and failed to show each time. Don’t reward not showing up. 

They're not rewarding not showing up.  They're rewarding Lee being a better, more dominant wrestler who equals or beats Moore on all criteria.

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Congrats to Spenser Lee, well deserved (but, from reading some of these posts, not a well liked (choice))

For this season, previous accomplishments may have been weighed "Moore"  - him being a 2 time NC and all!

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1 minute ago, shieldofpistis said:

I think college wrestling should not reward defaulting or ducking.  If Lee was honestly injured I understand.  But in general there is too much ducking.  I could be wrong but it seems Tom Ryan doesn't play that game. 

Exactly, and just as you said, no one knows if it was a duck or not.  But, Tom Ryan was one of the first to play that game

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Spencer's decision to wrestle and dominantly win 5 matches, 4 by T-FALL, at the US Senior National Championship is a strong indicator that Lee was not ducking anyone at the collegiate level.  His bracket included six total NCAA champs, dozens of past All-Americans, a Junior world silver medalist, a U23 world-teamer, in addition to several other credentialed wrestlers.  The competition was higher than Glory.  Lee outscored his five opponents a combined 52-6.  He was the most dominant wrestler in the the matches he wrestled.  Meanwhile, Kollin Moore had decision wins over impressive opponents (Gadson, White) before losing to Zillmer at the same tournament.  

Then again, Kyle Snyder was outside the top three Hodge contenders while dominating between 2016-2017 (lost once in 2018) in the matches he wrestled.  Kyle wrestled 11 to 18 matches per season.   His level of excellence actually hurt him in the (Hodge Trophy) voting.  Where is the consistency?

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31 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

Exactly, and just as you said, no one knows if it was a duck or not.  But, Tom Ryan was one of the first to play that game

I'm sorry I didn't know.  I haven't followed college wrestling as long as you.  As of recent it doesn't seem Ryan plays the duck game, does it?  

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10 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I'm sorry I didn't know.  I haven't followed college wrestling as long as you.  As of recent it doesn't seem Ryan plays the duck game, does it?  

Malik Hienselman sat out against Spencer Lee. Was he dinged up?

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30 minutes ago, jross said:

Spencer's decision to wrestle and dominantly win 5 matches, 4 by T-FALL, at the US Senior National Championship is a strong indicator that Lee was not ducking anyone at the collegiate level.  His bracket included six total NCAA champs, dozens of past All-Americans, a Junior world silver medalist, a U23 world-teamer, in addition to several other credentialed wrestlers.  The competition was higher than Glory.  Lee outscored his five opponents a combined 52-6.  He was the most dominant wrestler in the the matches he wrestled.  Meanwhile, Kollin Moore had decision wins over impressive opponents (Gadson, White) before losing to Zillmer at the same tournament.  

Then again, Kyle Snyder was outside the top three Hodge contenders while dominating between 2016-2017 (lost once in 2018) in the matches he wrestled.  Kyle wrestled 11 to 18 matches per season.   His level of excellence actually hurt him in the (Hodge Trophy) voting.  Where is the consistency?

 

Snyder was competing with Zain Retherford and Alex Dieringer for the Hodge in 16-17, not Kollin Moore. I am almost certain that if Zahid hadn't gotten in trouble, he would have been awarded this year's Hodge with the current circumstances.

You can't compare Snyder's years to 2019-2020, because there was Spencer/Zahid and then a big drop off in terms of eligible Hodge candidates.

Edited by Dondante88

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32 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I'm sorry I didn't know.  I haven't followed college wrestling as long as you.  As of recent it doesn't seem Ryan plays the duck game, does it?  

Yeah, I gotcha, I wasn’t meaning to sound like I was criticizing you and recently he hasn’t, but I remember him sitting some wrestlers out, in big home dual meets even, and they may have been injured, maybe not but it didn’t appear to be the case, very similar to what others are saying about Lee.

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4 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

I'll tell you what - I'll meet you half way. Perhaps the Hodge trophy should not have even been awarded at all since the NCAA championships never took place. I for one wanted to see Lee vs Glory and or Lee vs Mueller. I'm happy for Lee but it means nothing to Mee.

Mueller?  The guy who got smoked by Camacho?

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4 hours ago, Witherman said:

question for those thinking it should go to moore - if NCAAs would have happened and both moore and lee would have won out, lets say each of them gets bonus in their first three matches and regular decisions after, would you still have wanted moore to win the trophy over lee?  a one-time NCAA champ over a three time NCAA champ?

A one time NCAA champ with two career losses to a guy on PSU's bench.

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4 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I have little doubt Lee is the best wrestler in college right now, but I thought the whole point of the Hodge was giving it to whoever had the most pins, like the Gorrarian at NCAAs. That being the case there were a lot of people with more falls than Spencer Lee had this year.  I know the criteria has been adjusted to reflect "dominance" but that stinks to high heaven of "participation trophy" antics, to me.

That said, since Lee will likely not be a 4 time champ now, it's good that he got a consolation prize.

The Schalles is for the best pinner.  The Hodge is for the best wrestler.

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1 hour ago, PSUSMC said:

Congrats to Spenser Lee, well deserved (but, from reading some of these posts, not a well liked (choice))

For this season, previous accomplishments may have been weighed "Moore"  - him being a 2 time NC and all!

"not a well liked choice"............. yeah I guess.......  the vote was 52-5. so a few voters didn't "like him well"

or MAYBE he was VERY well liked ......... except by a few.

Edited by AKHUNTER
misspelling

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4 minutes ago, AKHUNTER said:

"not a well liked choice"............. yeah I guess.......  the vote was 52-5. so a few voters didn't "like him well"

or MAYBE he was VERY well liked ......... except by a few.

And to add, he did win on criteria 

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17 minutes ago, AKHUNTER said:

 

1 hour ago, PSUSMC said:

(but, from reading some of these posts, not a well liked (choice))

 

 16 minutes ago, AKHUNTER said

"not a well liked choice"............. yeah I guess.......  the vote was 52-5. so a few voters didn't "like him well"

or MAYBE the was VERY well liked ......... except by a few.

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

How do you mess that up?

 

Edited by Mphillips

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3 hours ago, Dondante88 said:

And of course the typical Iowa haters are all over this trying to come up with every argument to not give the most dominate wrestler award to the most dominant wrestler lol.

Donny - to the contrary, I'm an Iowa fan - always have been especially during the last few years with all the PA kids filling the roster. It's been fun watching Spencer both in HS and college, I like him and admire his dominance but there are things that prevent me from praising him at the same level like so many do on this board.

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