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Spencer Lee Wins Hodge Trophy

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1 hour ago, Schuteandscore said:

Yeah, I gotcha, I wasn’t meaning to sound like I was criticizing you and recently he hasn’t, but I remember him sitting some wrestlers out, in big home dual meets even, and they may have been injured, maybe not but it didn’t appear to be the case, very similar to what others are saying about Lee.

Malika sat against lee but I don't think that was a duck.  If i remember correctly the announcers said that because malika had been struggling Ryan gave someone else a shot.  Malika is not a contender anyway and it probably wasn't a bad idea to sit Malik because I could see Lee demolishing him and comprising his ability the rest of the season. 

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1 minute ago, shieldofpistis said:

Malika sat against lee but I don't think that was a duck.  If i remember correctly the announcers said that because malika had been struggling Ryan gave someone else a shot.  Malika is not a contender anyway and it probably wasn't a bad idea to sit Malik because I could see Lee demolishing him and comprising his ability the rest of the season. 

I agree, and I didn’t make that comment about Malik

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6 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Donny - to the contrary, I'm an Iowa fan - always have been especially during the last few years with all the PA kids filling the roster. It's been fun watching Spencer both in HS and college, I like him and admire his dominance but there are things that prevent me from praising him at the same level like so many do on this board.

What exactly prevents it?

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5 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

Should have been Moore. Make these guys wrestle, not these short schedules. Bad precedent is now set. 

You are correct but it isn’t a travesty that Spencer got it.

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8 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Quite frankly I'm surprised some on this board are not questioning why the Hodge was even awarded without the completion of the NCAA tourney. Just an observation. 

94% of the season was wrestled, if they didn’t award it, it would be worse.  And the guy who now probably would have been the 5th four time champ in history, who lost that, gets an award that he earned.  Yeah, I am not questioning that.

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7 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

What exactly prevents it?

Schute - just imagine a Spencer Lee who is as dominant with more to his arsenal like he is with the few he has mastered. In other words I would like to see more to his offense before I jump on the wagon with everyone else. He reminds me of Jesse Janzten who mastered the crab ride ("Jantzen Ride"). It's really the main move that contributed to his 4x NY state titles (the first to achieve this in the state). A phenomenal wrestler but just not that exciting because you always knew what was coming in every one of his matches. 

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you seem to forget (leave out) in your thinking?) how tough Lee is on his feet and in scrambles where he is very impressive. What you do know is that he will try the same turns. I would do the same as he does,which is, he is going to do those turns UNLESS you can STOP them. Then he will (often times) let you up and proceed to maul you from his feet.

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46 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Malika sat against lee but I don't think that was a duck.  If i remember correctly the announcers said that because malika had been struggling Ryan gave someone else a shot.  Malika is not a contender anyway and it probably wasn't a bad idea to sit Malik because I could see Lee demolishing him and comprising his ability the rest of the season. 

That by definition is a duck. An understandable duck and probably the right move for Malik, but still is a duck. Or is ducking only exclusive to "contenders?" 

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51 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Quite frankly I'm surprised some on this board are not questioning why the Hodge was even awarded without the completion of the NCAA tourney. Just an observation. 

I think it would have been fine to not award this year and imo probably the best option.

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1 hour ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Quite frankly I'm surprised some on this board are not questioning why the Hodge was even awarded without the completion of the NCAA tourney. Just an observation. 

This HAS been raised.

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58 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Schute - just imagine a Spencer Lee who is as dominant with more to his arsenal like he is with the few he has mastered. In other words I would like to see more to his offense before I jump on the wagon with everyone else. He reminds me of Jesse Janzten who mastered the crab ride ("Jantzen Ride"). It's really the main move that contributed to his 4x NY state titles (the first to achieve this in the state). A phenomenal wrestler but just not that exciting because you always knew what was coming in every one of his matches. 

I am following what you are saying but I just disagree.  Lee uses much of the same offense, but guess what, you use what has worked and it continues to work.  If you think that Lee doesn’t have a ton in his arsenal, that he just doesn’t use, you are wrong.  He has plenty, he just doesn’t have to pull it out, doesn’t mean it’s not there.  There have been numerous wrestlers that have a huge arsenal and they display it, and don’t get me wrong I love to see it, but never win a national title.  He has 2 already.  Jesse Jantzen, also is a national champ from a school that doesn’t have many, 2 in fact in history and he’s one.  Apparently what they do is working.  If you asked some 3 and 4 time all Americans ( who had amazing careers) if they are happy they had a large variety in their arsenals, if they would trade that for a national title, they would.

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8 hours ago, Katie said:

In a season without the NCAA championships, you'd think they'd go with someone who had a tougher schedule. (Lee, of course, is amazing.)

The default at Midlands wasn't a good look, but SOS isn't among the criteria, is it?

Edit: It is, but I'm not sure Moore actually faced stronger QoC.  Depends on how you perceive it; best win, most wins against top 10, most wins against qualifiers, and average opponent RPI could all produce different results.

Edited by whaletail

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3 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Quite frankly I'm surprised some on this board are not questioning why the Hodge was even awarded without the completion of the NCAA tourney. Just an observation. 

Is the Hodge supposed to be based on regular season plus championship or just regular season?

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12 hours ago, AHamilton said:

The fact that he is a troll who is a PSU fan?

Relax Alexander - I'm a fan of great wrestling in general with an edge towards PSU because I just happen to live in the state that produces the best of the best. Certainly a man of your high caliber could understand since coach's from all around the country (including the coach from your favorite team) flock here to compete against one another to acquire even 1 of our kids to bolster their roster. By the way, who is your team?  Would that make you a "troll" for following them a little more than usual vs all other teams?  Now move on little man - aren't you supposed to redesign the $10 bill?

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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13 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Schute - just imagine a Spencer Lee who is as dominant with more to his arsenal like he is with the few he has mastered. In other words I would like to see more to his offense before I jump on the wagon with everyone else. He reminds me of Jesse Janzten who mastered the crab ride ("Jantzen Ride"). It's really the main move that contributed to his 4x NY state titles (the first to achieve this in the state). A phenomenal wrestler but just not that exciting because you always knew what was coming in every one of his matches. 

i dont disagree that perhaps his arsenal is limited... but 

think about this

everyone KNOWS what he is going to do... and most cant stop it.

it's like larry bird telling the lakers where he is shooting from and then going and doing it in the finals.

or the Husker linemen in the 90's telling the defense where the ball is going...and then smashing it down their face at that spot.

thats dominance

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15 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Schute - just imagine a Spencer Lee who is as dominant with more to his arsenal like he is with the few he has mastered. In other words I would like to see more to his offense before I jump on the wagon with everyone else. He reminds me of Jesse Janzten who mastered the crab ride ("Jantzen Ride"). It's really the main move that contributed to his 4x NY state titles (the first to achieve this in the state). A phenomenal wrestler but just not that exciting because you always knew what was coming in every one of his matches. 

"Spencer Lee is so utterly dominant that it bores me, and therefore I think the award for the most dominant wrestler should go to someone else."

All this says is that you either don't watch much Spencer Lee or you don't understand what you're watching. Spencer hits his tilts because nobody can stop them. However, he could also take just about all of these guys down at will. Look at the second Medley and Schroder matches. Go watch his US Open run. He scores mostly on takedowns and hits a wide variety of them. If somebody could stop his bread and butter at the college level, you'd see that more often, but he's so incredibly dominant that you don't.

Spencer could have been 18-0 with 18 first period pins and people would still argue that Moore should win because Spencer missed 3 matches even though Moore wrestled at the weakest weight in the country and didn't even hit any of the top guys anyway, while still being far less dominant. To argue that Moore deserved the award is to de-legitimatizes the award itself because the entire argument rests on him not missing matches and being a senior, not that he was the more dominant wrestler.

 

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15 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Schute - just imagine a Spencer Lee who is as dominant with more to his arsenal like he is with the few he has mastered. In other words I would like to see more to his offense before I jump on the wagon with everyone else. He reminds me of Jesse Janzten who mastered the crab ride ("Jantzen Ride"). It's really the main move that contributed to his 4x NY state titles (the first to achieve this in the state). A phenomenal wrestler but just not that exciting because you always knew what was coming in every one of his matches. 

This is one of the worst takes on a talented wrestler that I've ever read. 

Anthony Robles was also very predictable, but he wasn't limited - he did what worked. 

Edited by headache

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3 minutes ago, headache said:

This is one of the worst takes on a talented wrestler that I've ever read. 

Anthony Robles was also very predictable, but he wasn't limited - he did what worked. 

"take"? no rather my opinion and I'm entitled to it just like you.

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28 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

"take"? no rather my opinion and I'm entitled to it just like you.

A "take" is an opinion. And, nobody stated you couldn't express your opinion. 

Edited by headache

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

"Spencer Lee is so utterly dominant that it bores me, and therefore I think the award for the most dominant wrestler should go to someone else."

All this says is that you either don't watch much Spencer Lee or you don't understand what you're watching. Spencer hits his tilts because nobody can stop them. However, he could also take just about all of these guys down at will. Look at the second Medley and Schroder matches. Go watch his US Open run. He scores mostly on takedowns and hits a wide variety of them. If somebody could stop his bread and butter at the college level, you'd see that more often, but he's so incredibly dominant that you don't.

Spencer could have been 18-0 with 18 first period pins and people would still argue that Moore should win because Spencer missed 3 matches even though Moore wrestled at the weakest weight in the country and didn't even hit any of the top guys anyway, while still being far less dominant. To argue that Moore deserved the award is to de-legitimatizes the award itself because the entire argument rests on him not missing matches and being a senior, not that he was the more dominant wrestler.

 

Let's be real, Spencer wrestled at the weakest weight by far. He also didn't wrestle a bunch of the top guys. 

Edited by CoachWrestling

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