Jump to content
BigTenFanboy

Winter sports denied extra year of eligibility

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

When have you seen a team that has 4 champs have the other 6 guys get pinned? PSU had a team this year very similar to what you’re talking about and those other 6 hardly if ever got pinned.

Who on PSU's starting lineup was a gaping hole? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Who on PSU's starting lineup was a gaping hole? 

According to the people here, I’d say 125, 149, 157, 184 (before Brooks) 197 (before Rasheed) and 285 (after Nevills).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mokoma said:

According to the people here, I’d say 125, 149, 157, 184 (before Brooks) 197 (before Rasheed) and 285 (after Nevills).

125 Beat 2 top 10 ranked wrestlers and had a 17-17 record. Not a gaping hole

149 17-8 record. Beat the 8th ranked wrestler in the country and qualified for nationals. Not a gaping hole.

157 9-13 flip 2 matches and hes .500. Not a gaping hole

184 Brooks. Nuff said

197 Kyle Conel.. injured.. returning 3rd place. Not a gaping hole.

285 Nevills 13-4 Not a gaping hole.

 

I dont see a single Gaping hole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

So whats more important overall? The individual wrestlers record or the team dual record? Is wrestling an individual sport? or a team sport?

I say its both.

Agreed. Which is why you have an individual championship.  And a team championship.  One event only crowns individual honors and one event only crowns team honors. You don’t try some convoluted system where they try to accomplish both. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

Agreed. Which is why you have an individual championship.  And a team championship.  One event only crowns individual honors and one event only crowns team honors. You don’t try some convoluted system where they try to accomplish both. 

Its not a convoluted system. Its one that most accurately measures how a team does against multiple other teams. Just like in Track and Field and Gymnastics and other sports as well.

 

In every other team sport an individual is capable of scoring the bulk of the teams sport. In a dual an indivudual is limited in scoring a maxium of 10% of the team's points.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

So simple, yet so true.

Although wouldn't all teams have to wrestle each other in order to have proper standings? Would large conferences like the EIWA and Big Ten need to be split up?

They could set up the dual schedule like a team tournament bracket.  
 

it would be bad for rivalries, but you can still have those meets near the end of the year and they just don’t count for the conference dual tournament.

Although, I don’t think a playoff system would work in wrestling as “qualifier slots” would go to rankings.  
 

You can do a single elimination dual tournament with the top 20 ranked teams in one and a half days.  Or you can squeeze it into one day...maybe only 16 teams.

HOWEVER, the best idea is to have 8 x 4 team pools.  Each 4 team pool wrestles each other one day.  Top pool team goes to tournament the next day for 3 more duals.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

For those that are moaning and groaning about the regular season not meaning anything.. that goes for ALL SPORTS. All you have to do is the bare minimum to qualify for the national tournament in ANY sport. Football is different because only until fairly recently have they had a National Championship determined by the winner of a mini tournament.

Not true in reality.    I've never seen a football or basketball team that takes a "meh" attitude towards regular season contests like we often see from wrestling coaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Pinnum said:

None of them have a regular season centered around dual meets.  In fact they don’t really have any dual meets.  They have the same team competition structure through the whole season. 
 

Wrestling has dual meets.  Dual meets that mean nothing other than to satisfy the demand for fans and rivalries that is ignored in the post seas. 

Looks like gymnastics and swimming/diving have dual meets.  But I’d imagine their fans might have a similar debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

With that said, none of this has to do with the denial of an extra season.

I brought it up because IMO it does.  If the NCAA’s were canceled but a team championship had been held, I think it wouldn’t have felt like so much of a lost season.  Obviously it would still suck for the individuals and IMO they still would have deserved another season, but at least something would have been determined during the season.

If the dual championship existed and had gotten canceled as well, then there wouldn’t be the argument of “only 1 tournament being canceled,” although I’m sure they still wouldn’t have gotten another year (most of basketball conference tourneys were canceled in addition to the national tournament).  Although speaking of basketball and more back to the original subject, I wonder if there was even much push from basketball coaches for an extra year, since the best players usually don’t stick around for 4 years anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's looking like we won't have sporting events of any kind until sometime in 2021, so the eligibility question is probably moot.   Maybe we'll get lucky and get a vaccine super-early.   Social distancing for a few months will not solve the virus problem to point where we can risk gatherings.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Full Nelson said:

It's looking like we won't have sporting events of any kind until sometime in 2021, so the eligibility question is probably moot.   Maybe we'll get lucky and get a vaccine super-early.   Social distancing for a few months will not solve the virus problem to point where we can risk gatherings.  

Who said that?   Obviously no one knows how it will play out and it can change quickly but it seems like as of right now at least they are planning on playing NFL and NCAA football games in 2020.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/will-there-be-college-football-in-2020-athletic-directors-weigh-in/ar-BB11Whza?li=BBnba9I - all AD's surveyed think there's at least a 50/50 chance (or better) of a 2020 season

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/mike-jones/2020/03/31/coronavirus-nfl-resolute-forging-2020-season-now/5099354002/ - NFL staying the course for now

Edited by 1032004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Cptafw164 said:

They could set up the dual schedule like a team tournament bracket.  
 

it would be bad for rivalries, but you can still have those meets near the end of the year and they just don’t count for the conference dual tournament.

Although, I don’t think a playoff system would work in wrestling as “qualifier slots” would go to rankings.  
 

You can do a single elimination dual tournament with the top 20 ranked teams in one and a half days.  Or you can squeeze it into one day...maybe only 16 teams.

HOWEVER, the best idea is to have 8 x 4 team pools.  Each 4 team pool wrestles each other one day.  Top pool team goes to tournament the next day for 3 more duals.  

I don't like basing it entirely on rankings.   Too subjective.   Giving auto qualifiers to the conference champs and then some at large spots makes sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Who said that?   Obviously no one knows how it will play out and it can change quickly but it seems like as of right now at least they are planning on playing NFL and NCAA football games in 2020.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/will-there-be-college-football-in-2020-athletic-directors-weigh-in/ar-BB11Whza?li=BBnba9I - all AD's surveyed think there's at least a 50/50 chance (or better) of a 2020 season

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/mike-jones/2020/03/31/coronavirus-nfl-resolute-forging-2020-season-now/5099354002/ - NFL staying the course for now

Nobody is saying it yet, of course there's not going to be an official shut down to fall sports right now.  But if you're really looking at how things are going, and looking at them realistically, its not far fetched at all to see that may end up being the case.  The article you linked yourself even said AD's feel its 50/50.  I  would not be surprised at all that when we get to June/July, we still don't have restrictions.  Maybe not to the point we have right now but still restricted, and the concern lingering around the corner of another wave in the fall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Its not a convoluted system. Its one that most accurately measures how a team does against multiple other teams. Just like in Track and Field and Gymnastics and other sports as well.

 

In every other team sport an individual is capable of scoring the bulk of the teams sport. In a dual an indivudual is limited in scoring a maxium of 10% of the team's points.

I don’t care how Iowa does against VMI and how Penn State does against Cal Poly when deciding the team title.  
 

I want to know how Penn State does against Iowa and vis versa.  
 

I don’t care who wins the title.  I don’t have a dog in that fight. I just want to see teams battle it out head to head.  And I believe based on the turn out for duals other fans do too.  
 

You might like the proxy war where one team gets a pigtail match and the other team doesn’t and that pigtail match win gives them the points needed to win the national championship.  But I don’t like it.  I don’t like a system where the two best teams could never meet on the mat and wrestle all other teams.  
 

You like to keep bringing up swimming, track, and even gymnastics.  But those sports don’t have athletes competing against each other—they compete along side each other.  There is no offense and defense.  Gymnasts aren’t trying to deny other gymnasts from sticking their landing.  Wrestling even has that (Metcalf vs Caldwell).  The athletes compete individually against a standard (time, point deductions, distance, etc)  they don’t compete against others   

And you talk about one wrestler being limited to a maximum of 10% of all potential points in a dual.   But You know that in a tournament each wrestler also has a finite number of points they can score and that number results in each wrestler being able to score 10% of the total available for a team.  It isn’t as different as you make it out to be.  
 

But I get it.  You fear change and like sitting with your spreadsheet to track the points scored in each match.  The good news is you can still do that.  The individual tournament will remain unchanged.  You will still get to have your spread sheet to track the team points and you can still tell people who you found to be the best team.  You get what you want. And you will also get a dual championship that you agree is wanted by fans.  You lose nothing and gain what you want.  Though I have a feeling no reasoning will sway you as you’re not really looking for compromised solutions and still think pitching the fantasy of two national champions being crowned in one sport is feasible.  As a result it is probably beat we agree that a dual championship is needed and disagree that the NCAA and department of education will change their policies because you think wrestling is unique and deserves special treatment. 

Edited by Pinnum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Looks like gymnastics and swimming/diving have dual meets.  But I’d imagine their fans might have a similar debate.

No, they don’t.  They have events they call dual meets but they aren’t what we know of dual meets.  
 

Wrestling really has duels.  We call them dual meets because we have two teams that compete but what is a tri-meet and a quad-meet?  These are very different things in swimming and gymnastics than they are in wrestling.  In wrestling, Those are just multi individual duels.  So in a tri-meet three teams each compete in two individual contests in wrestling which is different than swimming or gymnastics where it is still only one event, there are simply more teams entered.  
 

Swimming and gymnastics don’t have duels.  They use the same scoring no matter the number of teams. A dual is truly a dual and not a duel because it is just like a multi-team event but only two teams showed up.  
 

If wrestling used the swimming definition of a dual, it would be a tournament with only two teams competing.    Swimming duals can award placement honors to as many as six athletes and award team points to those that place place top five.  
 

gymnastics duals are merely a gymnastics meet where only two teams show up.  Though they have become more common thanks to Utah proving that fans are more willing to turn out to a gymnastics meet where there is only one other team competing and it can seem like there is more drama in two teams competing in a shorter period of time (like we observe in wrestling), they aren’t duels like we have in wrestling.  They still use the same scoring and event structure they would if they had 4 teams enter.  Additionally, gymnastics duals aren’t even uniform. The number of competitors entering in each event changes through the season.  So a team that wins a dual early in the season is likely different that the team that will win late in the season because the rules Chan he through the season.  It is nothing like the uniform head to head contest in wrestling.  

When a performed their routine once at an event independent of other teams and their total points adds up to more points than the other team in gymnastics they get credit for the win.  So if one other team showed up they went 1-0.  But if there other teams showed up (quad meet) they went 4-0.  The team that scored the least points in their routine would go 0-3.  
 

This would be like a team going 34-0 at a tournament because there were 35 teams entered and they won the tournament.  Or a better example may be cross country. Under the gymnastics scoring one race would be held with four teams in a quad meet and the total times added up would determine the team standings and the team that finished third would have gone 1-2 for their season record.  If wrestling scoring were used then each team would have three races and compete against each other team head to head with each race’s result determine the winner of the duel/dual.  The total times for contests with other teams would be irrelevant.

Gymnastics and swimming could all compete against other teams over zoom video conferencing. They could each compete in their home gym via conference call and the event would be the same.   That is very different than wrestling where you need to actually compete against a competitor from another team   You can’t simply compete along side them.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Full Nelson said:

Not true in reality.    I've never seen a football or basketball team that takes a "meh" attitude towards regular season contests like we often see from wrestling coaches.

Football is a completely different system since they have such few competitions.

Basketball on the other hand.. you think they take every single game as seriously as the NCAA tournament? Hardly. Every sport with the exception of football treats the regular season as preparation for the NCAA tournament. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Basketball on the other hand.. you think they take every single game as seriously as the NCAA tournament? Hardly. Every sport with the exception of football treats the regular season as preparation for the NCAA tournament. 

That is 100% wrong.  A buddy of mine coaches basketball in the SEC at a top program and I can tell you that every single game is huge.  It is nothing like the mentality in wrestling.  The regular season is actually more significant for teams than the conference tournaments in basketball. 

The difference in scheduling in wrestling and basketball is night and day.  Every basketball game is very significant and as a result the decisions in scheduling are very strategic.   One stumble in the regular can mean you’re not playing in the NCAA tournament.  
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Nobody is saying it yet, of course there's not going to be an official shut down to fall sports right now.  But if you're really looking at how things are going, and looking at them realistically, its not far fetched at all to see that may end up being the case.  The article you linked yourself even said AD's feel its 50/50.  I  would not be surprised at all that when we get to June/July, we still don't have restrictions.  Maybe not to the point we have right now but still restricted, and the concern lingering around the corner of another wave in the fall.

I agree. If I had to guess I'd say July at the earliest would be when we might see some sporting events in the US (even if no fans).   But there's a long time between July and the end of the year where even if it doesn't happen then, I think there's a good chance it could happen in October or something like that.   Obviously that can change.

50/50 was the lowest chance any of the AD's said.  49% of them thought there wan an 80% chance or greater of playing in 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

That is 100% wrong.  A buddy of mine coaches basketball in the SEC at a top program and I can tell you that every single game is huge.  It is nothing like the mentality in wrestling.  The regular season is actually more significant for teams than the conference tournaments in basketball. 

The difference in scheduling in wrestling and basketball is night and day.  Every basketball game is very significant and as a result the decisions in scheduling are very strategic.   One stumble in the regular can mean you’re not playing in the NCAA tournament.  
 

 

One stumble??? 3 Teams with 15 losses made automatic qualifiers for the NCAA tournament in 2019 and 28 teams with 10 or more losses.

Dont give that nonsense that a SINGLE regular season game has that much of an impact.

 

You obviously want the sport to become smaller since you are basically advocating for fewer participants.

In every sport the regular season is used for SEEDING in the post season. Wrestling is no different. 

Edited by BigTenFanboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

No, they don’t.  They have events they call dual meets but they aren’t what we know of dual meets.  
 

Wrestling really has duels.  We call them dual meets because we have two teams that compete but what is a tri-meet and a quad-meet?  These are very different things in swimming and gymnastics than they are in wrestling.  In wrestling, Those are just multi individual duels.  So in a tri-meet three teams each compete in two individual contests in wrestling which is different than swimming or gymnastics where it is still only one event, there are simply more teams entered.  
 

Swimming and gymnastics don’t have duels.  They use the same scoring no matter the number of teams. A dual is truly a dual and not a duel because it is just like a multi-team event but only two teams showed up.  
 

If wrestling used the swimming definition of a dual, it would be a tournament with only two teams competing.    Swimming duals can award placement honors to as many as six athletes and award team points to those that place place top five.  
 

gymnastics duals are merely a gymnastics meet where only two teams show up.  Though they have become more common thanks to Utah proving that fans are more willing to turn out to a gymnastics meet where there is only one other team competing and it can seem like there is more drama in two teams competing in a shorter period of time (like we observe in wrestling), they aren’t duels like we have in wrestling.  They still use the same scoring and event structure they would if they had 4 teams enter.  Additionally, gymnastics duals aren’t even uniform. The number of competitors entering in each event changes through the season.  So a team that wins a dual early in the season is likely different that the team that will win late in the season because the rules Chan he through the season.  It is nothing like the uniform head to head contest in wrestling.  

When a performed their routine once at an event independent of other teams and their total points adds up to more points than the other team in gymnastics they get credit for the win.  So if one other team showed up they went 1-0.  But if there other teams showed up (quad meet) they went 4-0.  The team that scored the least points in their routine would go 0-3.  
 

This would be like a team going 34-0 at a tournament because there were 35 teams entered and they won the tournament.  Or a better example may be cross country. Under the gymnastics scoring one race would be held with four teams in a quad meet and the total times added up would determine the team standings and the team that finished third would have gone 1-2 for their season record.  If wrestling scoring were used then each team would have three races and compete against each other team head to head with each race’s result determine the winner of the duel/dual.  The total times for contests with other teams would be irrelevant.

Gymnastics and swimming could all compete against other teams over zoom video conferencing. They could each compete in their home gym via conference call and the event would be the same.   That is very different than wrestling where you need to actually compete against a competitor from another team   You can’t simply compete along side them.  

 

I'll give you this for gymnastics, but I think you could argue swimming is a "duel."  It's comprised of races.   You don't race over zoon conference calls.

In fact in high school it looks like at least some states' championships (maybe all, no idea) are decided via duals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

Gymnastics and swimming could all compete against other teams over zoom video conferencing. They could each compete in their home gym via conference call and the event would be the same.   That is very different than wrestling where you need to actually compete against a competitor from another team   You can’t simply compete along side them.  

 

Considering the FACT that pool or competition surface plays a factor in these competitions your statement is false.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I'll give you this for gymnastics, but I think you could argue swimming is a "duel."  It's comprised of races.   You don't race over zoon conference calls.

In fact in high school it looks like at least some states' championships (maybe all, no idea) are decided via duals.

They are independent races where an athlete must stay in their own lane.  They also can have all the athletes from one team score the points.  You’re literally earning team points for beating more of your own teammates. 
 

Sure, there might be some water resistance based on what the person in the other lanes is doing but that would be the extent of it. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

125 Beat 2 top 10 ranked wrestlers and had a 17-17 record. Not a gaping hole

149 17-8 record. Beat the 8th ranked wrestler in the country and qualified for nationals. Not a gaping hole.

157 9-13 flip 2 matches and hes .500. Not a gaping hole

184 Brooks. Nuff said

197 Kyle Conel.. injured.. returning 3rd place. Not a gaping hole.

285 Nevills 13-4 Not a gaping hole.

 

I dont see a single Gaping hole.

Lol 157 is obviously a gaping hole. What was his record in the B1G ten duals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...