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CoachJSS

The man who recommended ODU drop wrestling.....

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4 hours ago, Katie said:

Old Dominion sponsors men’s golf. Men’s and women’s sailing. And women’s rowing, field hockey, and lacrosse.

It’s almost as if some of the sports that survive there cater to the children of the well-to-do.

Golf survives because it is cheap and checks a box.  It has nothing to do with being a “well-to-do” sport. 
 

ODU needs six men’s sports.  Golf and wrestling are both classified as individual sports.  So they are interchangeable.  
 

ODU is required to have one men’s sport every season.  They have basketball so winter is always going to be covered.  Basketball is a require sport.  
 

They also need to to keep male participation and male costs low for the low priority sports.  Golf and wrestling are both low priority sports.    
 

Wrestling has a roster of 35, four coaches, and competes over 20 times a season. 
 

Golf has a roster of 9, two coaches, and competed 10 times a year.  
 

Keeping golf was a no brainer.  Especially when it is a conference sport which wrestling is not.  

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12 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Do you know ODU's average attendance? i It's hard to find information outside of the top 25 attendance figures which is where they have been for the last 5 years.  I did find that their average was 819 in 2014. 

I do not, but I would ballpark in the low hundreds when teams like SIU-Edwardsville came to town, 750-1000 when teams like Missouri or NC state were the opponent. Navy was always a well attended match as well due to the schools proximity to the worlds largest navy base

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1 hour ago, Pinnum said:

We don’t know what ODU’s states goal was and which questions the consultant was suppose to answer.   
 

I assume it is a financially sustainable athletic department that is able to gain admission to the American Conference based on the success of the football and basketball programs. 
 

The consultant answered the question.

If you believe that wrestling is about All-Americans and just the individuals, then wrestling is not worse off with the loss of ODU. Because those athletes will remain in College wrestling.  The potential All-Americans that ODU has will be redistributed to other programs.

But in reference to the quote in the OP, isn’t getting All-Americans pretty much the definition of “national recognition and exposure”?

Edited by 1032004

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Just now, 1032004 said:

But I’m reference to the quote in the OP, isn’t getting All-Americans pretty much the definition of “national recognition and exposure”?

No.  

Not necessarily.  In our world it is but not in the general population.  
 

Very few wrestling fans of a school are aware of when golf, swimming, or rowing have an accomplished athlete at the school.  The same is true of wrestling.  We live in a bubble.  Our community is small.  And we don’t have a good way to expand it.  

A ODU fan with no ties to field hockey will show up to a conference championship game or NCAA playoff game for field hockey to support ODU.  They aren’t going to watch an all day wrestling tournament and they aren’t going to tune in to watch a three day championship with four athletes competing.  But they would watch a two hour long ODU dual the same as a field hockey game. 

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5 hours ago, IronChef said:

Do not email him. He did not make the decision, he made a recommendation that we don't like. He also has no power to reverse this decision, as he does not work for ODU. If it makes you feel better to say mean things about him, do it here. The only thing that happens if you email him is that you look bad.

You don’t have to say mean things to him to get your point across. You can tell him the trend of wrestling teams and point out facts about wrestling. Doesn’t have to be name calling. 
 

However, his way of thinking that only football and basketball matter is one of the reasons why wrestling teams get dropped. They are important and need to make money, if you’re a power 5 school. If you’re a group of 5 school, you’re living in fantasyland if you think you’re going to become the next Gonzaga in basketball. Admin are bright people, but sometimes the lure of money and moving on to a bigger school clouds good judgment.

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10 minutes ago, CoachJSS said:

However, his way of thinking that only football and basketball matter is one of the reasons why wrestling teams get dropped. They are important and need to make money, if you’re a power 5 school. If you’re a group of 5 school, you’re living in fantasyland if you think you’re going to become the next Gonzaga in basketball. 

I am confident his directive was on how to get football and basketball to improve a tier.

ODU isn't looking to be the next Gonzaga.  They are looking to be a Houston, Memphis, South Florida, Temple, or Cincinnati. 

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1 hour ago, Underhook said:

Going to disagree with this statement; unless you’re aware of some behind the scenes things that I am not. Most attendance at ODU home matches came from alumni, or members of the Hampton roads community. Students like me in attendance were relatively few. It was a common sight to see high school and middle school teams attend duals with their entire team. ODU’s annual dual with Navy packed the stands every year. In my opinion, ODU’s alumni and community support was as good as a mid-major program outside of “wrestling country” can hope for. 

Support = money. Showing up, cheering, etc. are important to a degree. But not more than money or the potential for money to be donated to the university (not necessarily the wrestling team).

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Looks like Martin should have recruited more foreigners to up the ROI instead of half the team being from VA or IL.  The men’s tennis team for example doesn’t have a single American on the roster.
They used to be a field hockey juggernaut. I still think the have the most overall NCAA titles ( not looking it up). There team was primarily from The Netherlands.

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We don’t know what ODU’s states goal was and which questions the consultant was suppose to answer.   
 
I assume it is a financially sustainable athletic department that is able to gain admission to the American Conference based on the success of the football and basketball programs. 
 
The consultant answered the question.
Wrestling fans need to be proactive and supporting programs by making donations to the school (not RTCs or Camps) earmarked for wrestling.  And we need a season structure that is more about. The teams and not about one weekend in March for a few individuals.  
 
If you believe that wrestling is about All-Americans and just the individuals, then wrestling is not worse off with the loss of ODU. Because those athletes will remain in College wrestling.  The potential All-Americans that ODU has will be redistributed to other programs.  
 
The one guarantee that college wrestling has is that there will be All-Americans and National Champions.  It doesn’t matter if you have 10 wrestlers of 1,000 wrestlers, there will always be a best wrestler.  
 
This is why I am less concerned with focusing on them.  I want to focus on the teams and ensuring there are more teams and diverse opportunities for athletes.  I want there to be teams that can get recognition without needing All-Americans. 
 
There is no doubt that if teams were judged by duals, ODU would have been in a better position. They have a competitive dual team even when they don’t have All-Americans. 
 
Of course I am not arguing that this change to duals is a panacea.  I am simply saying that it significantly helps the position of the fringe top-20 programs. 
Are you channeling Stove Pipe?

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We are missing a major and possibly the primary component as to why wrestling was identified for elimination.  In the wrestling vaccum, we don't understand the value placed on achievement in the department-wide conference.  The Big 10 is our only conference with comprehensive wrestling sponsorship.  When all your other sports compete within the same conference with total or near-total sport participaton, achievement in patchwork combined wrestling conferences rings hollow to administration and the fan/alumni/donor base.

Most NCAA member schools accept they will rarely, if ever, compete for a national title as a team in most sports.  In this common instance, conference results become the barometer.  Honestly, with this in mind, wrestling was an obvious choice as it is a total outlier in the conference. Further, if conference success was indicated to those conducting the external review as an important value of the department, wrestling was probably the correct recommendation given the criteria.

We can learn from this.  Listing All-Americans may be a fool's errand when arguing for the merits of a program, especially if that isn't what is valued by the institution.  When attempting to identify what programs need insulation and support by our community, our eyes may be off the ball.

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2 hours ago, Pinnum said:

Golf survives because it is cheap and checks a box.  It has nothing to do with being a “well-to-do” sport. 
 

ODU needs six men’s sports.  Golf and wrestling are both classified as individual sports.  So they are interchangeable.  
 

ODU is required to have one men’s sport every season.  They have basketball so winter is always going to be covered.  Basketball is a require sport.  
 

They also need to to keep male participation and male costs low for the low priority sports.  Golf and wrestling are both low priority sports.    
 

Wrestling has a roster of 35, four coaches, and competes over 20 times a season. 
 

Golf has a roster of 9, two coaches, and competed 10 times a year.  
 

Keeping golf was a no brainer.  Especially when it is a conference sport which wrestling is not.  

I'm not sure you directly addressed my suspicion about the socioeconomic backgrounds of wrestlers versus golfers. It seems to me that in order to so, you'd have to look at what the wrestling and golf programs respectively brought in in terms of donations. You'd perhaps also have to look at associated soft factors like image and where athletes in those respective programs eventually find employment. (It seems like it would be much easier to get a white collar job when you've been around the culture your whole life, your parents trained you to get such a job, and your family has connections.)

Of course, if golf is a conference sport while wrestling is not, that seems like it would be a huge factor.

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5 minutes ago, Katie said:

I'm not sure you directly addressed my suspicion about the socioeconomic backgrounds of wrestlers versus golfers. It seems to me that in order to so, you'd have to look at what the wrestling and golf programs respectively brought in in terms of donations. You'd perhaps also have to look at associated soft factors like image and where athletes in those respective programs eventually find employment. (It seems like it would be much easier to get a white collar job when you've been around the culture your whole life, your parents trained you to get such a job, and your family has connections.)

Of course, if golf is a conference sport while wrestling is not, that seems like it would be a huge factor.

No, I didn't directly address your suspicions.  But they are your suspicions because it is a paranoia you have.  You're the one that hold those biases and are projecting it.  This isn't a case of classism.

Your second paragraph is much more accurate. 

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One thing I've seen some over the years in particular with southern schools is that so few of the roster are from the home state. I didn't notice that mentioned here as a reason but it did sound like a lot were out of state.
We all know that most of the roster is not on full rides. The out of state tuition is often two or three times the in state rate. Recruiting out of state guys helps the university financially.

The biggest problem with the southern schools is apathy towards wrestling. They just don't care.

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2 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

We all know that most of the roster is not on full rides. The out of state tuition is often two or three times the in state rate. Recruiting out of state guys helps the university financially.

Only if they pay tuition. Va has the best southern HS wrestling so they can get in-state quality kids. A lot of what I had seen was Florida and Georgia and Alabama that might not have had any local starters. 

A quick look at the roster showed a number of Va kids but maybe a couple starters. A lot of Ill and Fla. It's more likely that the starters were on scholarship so they weren't helping the school financially as much. Anyone have any idea of the actual breakdown?

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1 hour ago, Pinnum said:

No, I didn't directly address your suspicions.  But they are your suspicions because it is a paranoia you have.  You're the one that hold those biases and are projecting it.  This isn't a case of classism.

Your second paragraph is much more accurate. 

The factor I was trying to draw out is revenue, which I think should be obvious to anyone.

As an aside, you are incredibly annoying to read. Welcome to my ignore list. 

Edited by Katie

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9 hours ago, gimpeltf said:
Richard Sander, Ed.D.

DIRECTOR FOR THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL SPORT LEADERSHIP,

Why wouldn't they? People use University personnel for studies all the time.

My question had to do with their inability to find qualified enough to conduct the study within their own university.

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5 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

My question had to do with their inability to find qualified enough to conduct the study within their own university.

I doubt many studies like this would ever be done from within. Could create difficult working conditions.

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5 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

One thing I've seen some over the years in particular with southern schools is that so few of the roster are from the home state. I didn't notice that mentioned here as a reason but it did sound like a lot were out of state.

ODU has a men's tennis team where none of the athletes are from the United States. 

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