Jump to content
CoachJSS

The man who recommended ODU drop wrestling.....

Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, Boompa said:

The problem is, we need to fire underperforming coaches instead of dropping programs.

We saw what Kolat did with one of the worst D1 programs in the country.


thats not even close to the problem.....Martin wasn’t underperforming at all. 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boompa said:

The problem is, we need to fire underperforming coaches instead of dropping programs.

We saw what Kolat did with one of the worst D1 programs in the country.

I am pretty sure Kolat getting hired was the result of a major investment in wrestling by Campbell where they went after him specifically and then made significant investments into wrestling facilities.  
 

Campbell got good because they made an investment in wrestling.  
 

If they don’t make the investment the program wouldn’t be in such a great place right now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boompa said:

The problem is, we need to fire underperforming coaches instead of dropping programs.

We saw what Kolat did with one of the worst D1 programs in the country.

Coach Martin tied the all-time dual meet win record at ODU in 10 less seasons than the program's founder Pete Robinson. 
Coach Martin coached wrestlers to 10 All-American placements since he was hired in the 2004-05 season. James Nicholson was his first All-American, placing in the third season Martin was the head coach. The previous All-American was Nick Hall at heavyweight in 1995. Martin coached 65 wrestlers to the NCAA tournament in 16 seasons, more than half of the total (119) the school ever had compete. 
Coach Martin's 10 medals in the span of 12 seasons (08-19) was more than the previous years TOTAL. 

Coach Martin led ODU to double-digit dual meet win totals in 10 of his 16 seasons. Coach Martin had FOUR losing seasons of the 16. In the seven years prior to his hire, ODU had ONE winning season, while scheduling schools like Norfolk State, Delaware State, Howard and Seton Hall, while wrestling a conference schedule the CAA. 

I loved Coach Simons, but ODU could be considered underperforming when it didn't have an All-American. 

As far as team rankings go, ODU was ranked for 78 weeks. 76 of those are on Coach Martin's watch. The only other times ODU was ranked in the Top 25 was for two weeks in 1992. In 2016, ODU was ranked as high as #15 in the country. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm confused why anyone would reach out to Dr. Sander at this point. The man did the job he was hired to do as a consultant, is not a university employee, and has moved on. As was pointed out previously, he provided a recommendation, nothing more. The administrators at ODU made the final decision. It seems to me, as it does to others on this thread, that the ODU administration had their minds made up about dropping wrestling before Sanders gave his opinion. It's with them that you have your "fight".

Also, why are people disparaging Dr. Sander's level of education in regard to his choice of profession? Would you have preferred a medical doctor been consulted for this report just to have PhD after his name? What sense would that make? The bogus moral high ground here is pretty pathetic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my professional experience, consultants often (but not always) are brought in when the business has already made its decision and wants a 2nd opinion or an "independent" party to point the finger at. It's possible ODU's decision was made before the consultant was ever hired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

In my professional experience, consultants often (but not always) are brought in when the business has already made its decision and wants a 2nd opinion or an "independent" party to point the finger at. It's possible ODU's decision was made before the consultant was ever hired.

And it's possible this answers LU Alum's question as in they figured they'd get this answer from him so they hired him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/4/2020 at 7:25 AM, Katie said:

Old Dominion sponsors men’s golf. Men’s and women’s sailing. And women’s rowing, field hockey, and lacrosse.

It’s almost as if some of the sports that survive there cater to the children of the well-to-do.

In my County the two most successful sports are Wrestling and Field hockey. If you think Perry County Pa is a "way to do county", well, politely, you just don't think 

Edited by RichB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RichB said:

In my County the two most successful sports are Wrestling and Field hockey. If you think Perry County Pa is a "way to do county", well, politely, you just don't think 

Good point. If the daughters of your low-income friends play field hockey, it totally negates the national trends with regard to multiple sports. 

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Fletcher said:

In my professional experience, consultants often (but not always) are brought in when the business has already made its decision and wants a 2nd opinion or an "independent" party to point the finger at. It's possible ODU's decision was made before the consultant was ever hired.

I totally agree with this. In many years working on a university campus, I have seen this happen several times. Consultants also provide a convenient scapegoat  should a chosen course of action turn out badly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Katie said:

Good point. If the daughters of your low-income friends play field hockey, it totally negates the national trends with regard to multiple sports. 

Ah-ah. A true example of Dunning-Kruger.  Know nothing about a sport. Spout off about it. When given simple indisputable facts, respond with anger, hatred and reinforced ignorance.

There are no sports that that could have helped wrestling survive the supposed title 9 masacre better than Field Hockey and Rowing. No NCAA Male equivalents. But too many folks, like Denny Hastert's right hand man, who were more concerned with politics and being a victim. Simply put, someone says "we have to cancel wrestling because of T9" -we respond "try adding FH or Crew". That is not the case at ODU. At ODU the problem is elevating the football program to a level that won't be profitable until the Last Grad assistant is retired, that was almost always the problem. The true snobs were the football coaches like Bear-Bryant

 

Edited by RichB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RichB said:

Ah-ah. A true example of Dunning-Kruger.  Know nothing about a sport. Spout off about it. When given simple indisputable facts, respond with anger, hatred and reinforced ignorance.

There are no sports that that could have helped wrestling survive the supposed title 9 masacre better than Field Hockey and Rowing. No NCAA Male equivalents. But too many folks, like Denny Hastert's right hand man, who were more concerned with politics and being a victim. Simply put, someone says "we have to cancel wrestling because of T9" -we respond "try adding FH or Crew". That is not the case at ODU. At ODU the problem is elevating the football program to a level that won't be profitable until the Last Grad assistant is retired, that was almost always the problem. The true snobs were the football coaches like Bear-Bryant

 

I can see that you apparently know how to supplement your bro psychology practice with Google. Good job.

So let me help you out with your next research project. If you wanted to refute my speculation about multiple sports, you will want to find national statistics about those sports. Anecdotal observations about one sport in your low-income county doesn’t really do anything for me.

If my speculation is wrong, it’s wrong. But you haven’t even come close to demonstrating that.  

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is your refutation,   ----   https://www.piaa.org/schools/classifications/classlist.aspx?sportID=9

In the Lehigh Valley Every School that has field Hockey has wrestling, One thru a co-op,

In District 3 every school that has field Hockey has or co-ops in wrestling, except Lancaster Mennonite. Do you think Lanc Mennonite is more like Beverly Hills HS or Choate? And every HS With Wrestling,  except about 2 , with wrestling has FH (about 90 in each category)

District 1 has about 5 schools with Field Hockey and no wrestling - a couple all girls, And about 3 Wrestling no FH about 74 each group

Not Much FH in the Northern Tier Counties, But in the rest of D2 and D4, All but 1-2 schools with FH have wrestling. 

In District 12, Philadelphia Public and Catholic, all but single sex schools with wrestling have Hockey.

 

Pennsylvania dominates Field Hockey much more than wrestling. Usually the plurality, often the Majority of the Women's FH Olympic and World are from those 6 districts,

So if your hypothesis is correct, Then Wrestling is just as snotty a sport as field hockey. I don;t think most wrestlers are spoiled brats but obviously you do,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Katie said:

Good point. If the daughters of your low-income friends play field hockey, it totally negates the national trends with regard to multiple sports. 

Field Hockey is a very regional sport.  The majority of US National team players come from Pennsylvania.  Before The Rio Olympics they relocated training to Eastern PA because so much of the team was from the area.  
 

While in certain places (like New England) field hockey is viewed as a prep school sport, in Pennsylvania (which has spilled into Delaware and Maryland), field hockey is just another general sport offered by high schools and isn’t known as a sport for the wealthy.  
 

If you live in some place like California, then what you say would be accurate.  But in the places with the largest population of players it isn’t a wealthy sport.  In fact, because it is a regional sport, there is less money spent on travel than in wrestling to play the better competition which makes it very accessible, not only to play but to play at the highest levels.  There are a ton of opportunities in field hockey at the college level and few high school players to fill those slots.  And that is exactly why some wealthy non-traditional field hockey areas have started programs.  They did it to get their kids a leg up on admissions to elite schools.  But make no mistake about it, the sport is not a wealthy sport.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RichB said:

Ah-ah. A true example of Dunning-Kruger.  Know nothing about a sport. Spout off about it. When given simple indisputable facts, respond with anger, hatred and reinforced ignorance.

There are no sports that that could have helped wrestling survive the supposed title 9 masacre better than Field Hockey and Rowing. No NCAA Male equivalents. But too many folks, like Denny Hastert's right hand man, who were more concerned with politics and being a victim. Simply put, someone says "we have to cancel wrestling because of T9" -we respond "try adding FH or Crew". That is not the case at ODU. At ODU the problem is elevating the football program to a level that won't be profitable until the Last Grad assistant is retired, that was almost always the problem. The true snobs were the football coaches like Bear-Bryant

 

Did I miss something in this discussion? How is Women's Wrestling not the best sport to balance Men's Wrestling for Title IX purposes?  Not to mention, an investment in perhaps the fastest growing youth sport in the country with very real opportunities to put young women on World teams right away...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Did I miss something in this discussion? How is Women's Wrestling not the best sport to balance Men's Wrestling for Title IX purposes?  Not to mention, an investment in perhaps the fastest growing youth sport in the country with very real opportunities to put young women on World teams right away...

You're Correct, But that is a new phenomenon. Really prior to this year, The only two attempts at D1 Women's wrestling may have been CSUB, LHU. Gymnastics could be another,  considering that men's programs are almost nul. 30+ years years ago, Don Sayenga, the the Historian Suggested :"marrying"  Rhythmic Gymnastics, an all female sport using the same, unsprung, mat . Heck, I like all of them But rowing may-have 50-60 athletes and FH 20+ (like Women's wrestllng hopefully)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here is your refutation,   ----   https://www.piaa.org/schools/classifications/classlist.aspx?sportID=9

In the Lehigh Valley Every School that has field Hockey has wrestling, One thru a co-op,

In District 3 every school that has field Hockey has or co-ops in wrestling, except Lancaster Mennonite. Do you think Lanc Mennonite is more like Beverly Hills HS or Choate? And every HS With Wrestling,  except about 2 , with wrestling has FH (about 90 in each category)

District 1 has about 5 schools with Field Hockey and no wrestling - a couple all girls, And about 3 Wrestling no FH about 74 each group

Not Much FH in the Northern Tier Counties, But in the rest of D2 and D4, All but 1-2 schools with FH have wrestling. 

In District 12, Philadelphia Public and Catholic, all but single sex schools with wrestling have Hockey.

 

Pennsylvania dominates Field Hockey much more than wrestling. Usually the plurality, often the Majority of the Women's FH Olympic and World are from those 6 districts,

So if your hypothesis is correct, Then Wrestling is just as snotty a sport as field hockey. I don;t think most wrestlers are spoiled brats but obviously you do,

While field hockey is greatly represented in district 2, there are plenty of schools that don't have a program. Dunmore, Old Forge, Riverside, Lakeland, North Pocono, West Scranton, Scranton, etc

 

 

 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Fletcher said:

In my professional experience, consultants often (but not always) are brought in when the business has already made its decision and wants a 2nd opinion or an "independent" party to point the finger at. It's possible ODU's decision was made before the consultant was ever hired.

As a former consultant I can 100% concur with this statement.Typically you work backwards from your client's desired solution to the root cause of the systemic change you want to implement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

As a former consultant I can 100% concur with this statement.Typically you work backwards from your client's desired solution to the root cause of the systemic change you want to implement.

And how much you think they paid him do it?  Probably at least a couple hundred grand right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/4/2020 at 8:26 PM, Sparky said:

ODU has a men's tennis team where none of the athletes are from the United States. 

That’s actually something schools love.  
 

The need to have a male sport for NCAA requirements.  Tennis is a very small and inexpensive program to operate so it is a sport of choice.  (Plus academics tend to like having tennis courts available on campus for recreational use.)
 

At the same time, schools want diversity.  They really want international students.  It brings a more diverse perspective to the campus and allows students to interact with people with different cultures, histories, and world views.  

It also gives them impression that the school is a desired location all around the world to study.  

They use international athletes to accomplish both of these goals at once.  

It saves a lot of money to accomplish each of these goals at once.   

No need for separate  international student scholarships and separate athlete scholarships.  No need to have coaches recruiting athletes and the international students office recruiting separate athletes.  
 

Golf and Tennis are the schools I see this the most with.   I remember being told by one golf coach that they don’t recruit.  They will give tours to Americans who visit campus and are interested in joining the team but their international students office  supplies them with their athletes.  The school doesn’t care about ability but their teams were regularly stronger than those with local American players.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

And how much you think they paid him do it?  Probably at least a couple hundred grand right?

No clue on the financials because I was mgmt consulting and this is a totally different field. I do assume the statement of work is a matter of public record or could be FOIA'd and that would be a good starting ground to ask why ODU would spend significant money to cut an athletic program(s)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...