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Asa Packer

Kyle Dake, 4-timer without a redshirt!

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Watching frosh Dake (at 141) and Senior Dake (at 165) on ESPN has got me thinking. Why were folks so excited that he won 4 titles at 4 different weight classes?

Other than its never been done before. Its not like a boxer who holds crowns at multiple weights. He had to go up, he grew.

Does Dake as a Junior win at 141? No, way too sucked down. Does Dake as a Senior win at 149? No, way too sucked down. 

I'll say moving up to 165 to face Taylor was ballsy; and from memory, scuttlebutt at the time was it wasn't an absolute requirement from growth/weight standpoint.

Not a hater, he'd be on my Mt Rushmore, with Cael, Gable and tbd.

To me, the fact he won 4 without a redshirt is bigger accomplishment; hence my title.

But someone make a case that 4 at 4 weight classes is bigger/better.

 

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My assumption is that changing weight classes exposes you to more unique opponents and styles.  When you are the best at one weight class, you have seen much of what your competition has to offer.  When you repeat at a weight class, some quality opponents move out of the class to try their odds with different opponents.  When staying at the same weight class, while it is difficult to beat quality opponents many times over, you are more confident and familiar with your challenge.  With a weight class change, you may face more accomplished wrestlers that provide a better sense of achievement.  Lastly, there may be some truth to how difficult it is to retain your power ratio while moving up weights.

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2 hours ago, Asa Packer said:

Watching frosh Dake (at 141) and Senior Dake (at 165) on ESPN has got me thinking. Why were folks so excited that he won 4 titles at 4 different weight classes?

Other than its never been done before. Its not like a boxer who holds crowns at multiple weights. He had to go up, he grew.

Does Dake as a Junior win at 141? No, way too sucked down. Does Dake as a Senior win at 149? No, way too sucked down. 

I'll say moving up to 165 to face Taylor was ballsy; and from memory, scuttlebutt at the time was it wasn't an absolute requirement from growth/weight standpoint.

Not a hater, he'd be on my Mt Rushmore, with Cael, Gable and tbd.

To me, the fact he won 4 without a redshirt is bigger accomplishment; hence my title.

But someone make a case that 4 at 4 weight classes is bigger/better.

 

Well if not for the tie RD, Hutton would've had 4 undefeated without RS. And if not for the probation Smith 4 without RS.

I think what Dake did was a big deal, especially given the last, given all the fantasy losses.

Edited by ionel

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11 minutes ago, ionel said:

Well if not for the tie RD, Hutton would've had 4 undefeated without RS. And if not for the probation Smith 4 without RS.

I think what Dake did was a big deal, especially given the last, given all the fantasy losses.

And if not for a tie RD his true freshman year, Lee Kemp would have been a 4Xer without a redshirt too.

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To me the significance of 4 weight classes is that it shows that when Dake was a true frosh, he was just a kid, physically immature with a lot of growing to do. Nevertheless, he beat physical beasts like Marion and Molinaro.

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Forget about Dake's 4 titles. Are there other guys who wrestled 4 weights (or even three) and had amazing careers, such as three titles or even two? 

Edited by NJDan

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38 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Forget about Dake's 4 titles, are there other guys who wrestled 4 weights (or even three) and had amazing careers, such as three titles or even two? 

I'm sure there are others but right off the bat Quentin Wright finished 6th as a true frosh at 174, then redshirted and finished 1,2 at 184 before winning a 2nd title at 197 as a senior. 

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17 minutes ago, novalion said:

I'm sure there are others but right off the bat Quentin Wright finished 6th as a true frosh at 174, then redshirted and finished 1,2 at 184 before winning a 2nd title at 197 as a senior. 

I mean that’s a good example and all, but it’s not even the best one from PSU who also wrestled those 3 weights.

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47 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

I mean that’s a good example and all, but it’s not even the best one from PSU who also wrestled those 3 weights.

Who is the best example?

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1 hour ago, novalion said:

I'm sure there are others but right off the bat Quentin Wright finished 6th as a true frosh at 174, then redshirted and finished 1,2 at 184 before winning a 2nd title at 197 as a senior. 

Bo Nickel went RS, 2nd at 174, 1st 2x at 184, and champ at 197 

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

I mean that’s a good example and all, but it’s not even the best one from PSU who also wrestled those 3 weights.

Good point. Q just popped into my head without thinking about it. 

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Winning at different weights may not be that significant, but winning at FOUR different weights IS significant. You can't wrestle at 165 the way you do at 141. If you can win NCAAs after a 24 lb jump throughout your college career, it shows more than skill. It shows you have the ability to adapt to significant changes in competition, that your skill set is highly adaptable, that your intangibles are extremely impressive. One or even a two weight jump is not the same as a 4-weight range of championship seasons in 4 consecutive years.

Bo Nickal didn't have quite the same trajectory, but his domination in three different weights is similarly notable.

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21 hours ago, Pinnum said:

Without a redshirt is significant and I would argue more significant than the weight changes since he just wrestled the weights where he was comfortable.  
 

Dake is one of the best. 

well ....... I am not sure WHY some folks say one (4 without a RS or moving up 4 weights) is more significant than the other since he did BOTH. Makes him the only one on THAT ladder.

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Jordan Burroughs wrestled the same 4 weights as Dake.

Burroughs wrestled three bouts at 141 before moving up as a frosh (1-2 at the Harold Nichols Open) His four years at NCAA were:

2007: 149, 1-2 with losses coming to Schlatter and Storniolo
2008: 149, 3rd
2009: 157, 1st
2010: 157, Medical RS
2011: 165, 1st


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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33 minutes ago, AKHUNTER said:

well ....... I am not sure WHY some folks say one (4 without a RS or moving up 4 weights) is more significant than the other since he did BOTH. Makes him the only one on THAT ladder.

Wrestlers wrestle their weight.  He competed at his weight, grew, wrestled at his new weight, grew, wrestled at his new weight.  
 

I don’t consider that to be impressive.  
 

The four titles are impressive—it doesn’t matter what weights you do it at.  
 

Winning as a true freshmen is impressive. Even the greatest take losses in their true freshmen years (like Cael did).  
 

Going four years without an injury or taking a break for a mental recharge, to focus on some tough classes, or to let your body adjust to a new weight is more impressive.  
 

Though I have thought for a long time that kids would be better off being more opening to moving weight classes as their bodies grow or as a means to get a break from cutting.  I have noticed a lot of guys have a renewed energy when they move up a weight. 

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23 minutes ago, lu_alum said:


Burroughs wrestled three bouts at 141 before moving up as a frosh (1-2 at the Harold Nichols Open) His four years at NCAA were:

2007: 149, 1-2 with losses coming to Schlatter and Storniolo
2008: 149, 3rd
2009: 157, 1st
2010: 157, Medical RS
2011: 165, 1st


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks I was just going to ask about Burroughs at 141. I did not remember that

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I agree with the OP that winning 4 without a redshirt is way more impressive than simply changing weights. Although I have to admit going up to 165 to face Taylor when he probably could have made 157 is legendary. But the whole no red shirt is something Cael did not even do. Who knows if Cael could have won as a true freshman... we do know he did take a loss but so did Dake. You could argue that may even put Dake ahead of Cael

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15 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree with the OP that winning 4 without a redshirt is way more impressive than simply changing weights. Although I have to admit going up to 165 to face Taylor when he probably could have made 157 is legendary. But the whole no red shirt is something Cael did not even do. Who knows if Cael could have won as a true freshman... we do know he did take a loss but so did Dake. You could argue that may even put Dake ahead of Cael

But wouldn't you agree that the hardest time to win would be true freshman year?  And a 4xer already did that. 

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42 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

Wrestlers wrestle their weight.  He competed at his weight, grew, wrestled at his new weight, grew, wrestled at his new weight.  
 

I don’t consider that to be impressive.  
 

The four titles are impressive—it doesn’t matter what weights you do it at.  
 

Winning as a true freshmen is impressive. Even the greatest take losses in their true freshmen years (like Cael did).  
 

Going four years without an injury or taking a break for a mental recharge, to focus on some tough classes, or to let your body adjust to a new weight is more impressive.  
 

Though I have thought for a long time that kids would be better off being more opening to moving weight classes as their bodies grow or as a means to get a break from cutting.  I have noticed a lot of guys have a renewed energy when they move up a weight. 

I'll give you the growth argument (tho I am only partly on board with that) but when he CHOSE to go after Taylor it had very little to do with growth. It had more to do with legacy. And to me THAT cemented for all time. A VERY ballsy move that could have cost him his 4th. At the time virtually everyone had Taylor coming out on top in that one. We ALL know how the fantasy matches came out between those two.

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41 minutes ago, ionel said:

But wouldn't you agree that the hardest time to win would be true freshman year?  And a 4xer already did that. 

I agree that’s a fair point, but it doesn’t make it any less impressive that Dake did it also. I admittedly don’t know much about Pat Smith, but I don’t think he beat anyone like Taylor so I would have to put him a slight notch behind Dake 

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