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fadzaev2

Greatest wrestlers by areas of technique.

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

Would you rather have med medberry sprawl on you or delgado?

That’s not what the argument or point was at all, on your side and when you’re more athletic and fast it doesn’t matter.  At those weights you are re-attacking, not sprawling.  Sprawling still works at heavyweight, defending the first shot, again, that doesn’t work at the lower weights.

Edited by Schuteandscore

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

Yes.  Against a 2 timer that he defeated.  Any other times? How many times has Rutherford taken down in the tourney someone that outweighed him by 40?

I don’t know I just answered the question.  I don’t have all of Snyder’s matches memorizes.  Nevills took him down twice but I don’t think either was a counter off a Snyder shot.  

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1 minute ago, ionel said:

They didn't wrestle in college but point is how could any pick Brands bros over Smith on takedowns in a college GOAT category.  

Brands scored quite a few takedowns in college.  Tom won more national titles than Smith and was an all-American more times.

Smith was the GOAT USA freestyler, but Brands had a better 4 year collegiate career IMHO.

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Just now, AHamilton said:

Brands scored quite a few takedowns in college.  Tom won more national titles than Smith and was an all-American more times.

Smith was the GOAT USA freestyler, but Brands had a better 4 year collegiate career IMHO.

Well sure, different competition.  Smith beat Lewis while still in college, you know that impossible leg thing and Smith was I think 6 years younger.  Believe Smith only 2 years older that Tom, in the above he destroyed Brands from neutral, only points Tom got were when Smith willingly gave up 1pt td cause it didn't matter.

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3 hours ago, ionel said:

Well sure, different competition.  Smith beat Lewis while still in college, you know that impossible leg thing and Smith was I think 6 years younger.  Believe Smith only 2 years older that Tom, in the above he destroyed Brands from neutral, only points Tom got were when Smith willingly gave up 1pt td cause it didn't matter.

Smith is my favorite US wrestler ever.  In that video, John Smith was post college.  Brands had likely more takedowns in college than Smith.  Smith as a different wrestler his final two years of college than he was his first two.  Brands definitely a better 4 year college wrestler than Smith.

Edited by AHamilton

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15 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

It was vs. Johnnie Jones (Zeke's brother)....final score 11-9....great match....in the finals he beat Mike McArthure 8-7, who he had lost to in the Big Ten Finals, 4-0.  Haines won the World Cup in Toledo one year too

Haines also won a World Silver medal in San Diego in 1979.  He lost to a multi time world/Olympic Champ from Japan.  The year Gonzalez won D2 & D1 was the 1979-1980 season (same year Azevedo won D1) - in 1979 he lost in the finals to G Mills in  a truly awesome match.

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26 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

Haines also won a World Silver medal in San Diego in 1979.  He lost to a multi time world/Olympic Champ from Japan.  The year Gonzalez won D2 & D1 was the 1979-1980 season (same year Azevedo won D1) - in 1979 he lost in the finals to G Mills in  a truly awesome match.

The Japanese wrestler was Yuji Takada....I've talked to Serget Belaglozov about him....Sergie spoke very highly of him....also, I was there for the Mills/Gonzo match and have it in my library...16-13....

Yuji Takada.....Representing 23px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png JapanOlympic GamesGold medal – first place1976 Montreal52 kgBronze medal – third place1984 Los Angeles52 kgWorld ChampionshipsGold medal – first place1974 Istanbul52 kgGold medal – first place1975 Minsk52 kgGold medal – first place1977 Lausanne52 kgGold medal – first place1979 San Diego52 kgBronze medal – third place1973 Tehran52 kgAsian GamesSilver medal – second place1974 Tehran52 kgGold medal – first place1978 Bangkok52 kg

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On 4/11/2020 at 5:28 PM, fadzaev2 said:

Kevin Vogel  Central MIchigan ....left handed headlock.

This is a great thread, Fadz.  I remember you once started another very good and highly knowledgeable thread on Best Duck unders...so who are your top five in that category?

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These are the best I PERSONALLY ever saw, so the last 15ish years

 

Top 5 greatest takedown wrestlers of all-time:

Stephen Abas: The snappiest takedown i have ever seen to this day. wrestled simultaneously relaxed and like a coiled snake.

Cael Sanderson: He moved people into positions like he had hijacked control over their body and he was already waiting for them when the got there.  He didn't even have to be fast because he barely had to move to finish on you.

Ed Ruth: His single leg makes Zahid's single leg look like my single leg.  ridiculous.

John Smith: Actually much better at the absurd level change head outside single/ high-C out the backdoor or crackdown then the "Smith single" everyone talks about

Honestly, might throw peak Jordan Oliver in here...incredible diversity, speed, timing, and grit on his takedown

Top 5 greatest mat wrestlers of all-time:

Kyle Dake: best pure "rider" ever. basically no chance of escape and the best mat returns.

Zain Retherford: legalized torture.

Anthony Robles: his senior year roll-through tilt was so dominant

David Taylor: a thousand ways to turn ya

Ed Ruth: cradles count

Spencer Lee will be on this list when he is done if he isn't already

Top 5 greatest leg wrestlers of all-time:

Mitch Clark: teched a guy in the NCAA finals. enough said

Jordan Leen: experienced this personally..ruthless

Zain Retherford: legalized torture

A.J. Schoop: I am going to count his western cross-face/tilt series as a leg ride here. he was so nasty at that.

I want to put Dave Schultz here because he nearly killed Nate Carr with a folkstyle leg ride in freestyle, so I am imagining his top was filthy in college.

Top 5 wrestlers with the most grit/mental toughness/heart:

Literally anyone who takes 3rd place at NCAAs...either battling back from an early loss or getting yourself back up after a semi-final heartbreaker is probably the hardest thing to do in the sport.  People who lost first round and came back all those matches like A.J. Schoop or Troy Nickerson are scary tough.

 

Team Grit: Brent Metcalf, Steve Mocco, Gabe Dean, Alex Deiringer

Team Mental-toughness: Kyle Dake, Jason Nolf, J'den Cox, Jordan Burroughs

Team Heart: Jeff Jaggers, Yanni D, Kyle Snyder, Isaiah Martinez

 

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13 hours ago, MedicineMan said:
  On 4/11/2020 at 6:28 PM, fadzaev2 said:

Kevin Vogel  Central MIchigan ....left handed headlock.

This is a great thread, Fadz.  I remember you once started another very good and highly knowledgeable thread on Best Duck unders...so who are your top five in that category?

Yes, I spent a lot of time on that "bad boy", but it was fun.  Included among my best duckunder guys :  John Smith, Nate Carr,  Melvin Douglas, Les Gutches, Ricky Delagatta, Reece Humphrey, Jesse Jantzen, Lincoln McIlravy and John Fritz hit a sweet one on Pat Milkovich in the 1975 NCAA's that I will never forget...underhook on one side, Milk had his wrist on the other side, John jacked up the UH and ducked caught wrist side. (great question MM...you actually made me go back thru that thread...LOL....sorry, but I don't really want to narrow it to 5...probably some other guys with great ducks out there too, but these are some of the best American's anyway)

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On 4/11/2020 at 10:42 PM, AHamilton said:

Smith is my favorite US wrestler ever.  In that video, John Smith was post college.  Brands had likely more takedowns in college than Smith.  Smith as a different wrestler his final two years of college than he was his first two.  Brands definitely a better 4 year college wrestler than Smith.

Perhaps review original post , was a reply to just the "top 5 takedown" and to poster who said "My list, feel free to pick apart!" to which I provided an example.  But to your reply, Smith wrestled as a true freshman, he was pretty darn good at takedowns as a true freshman and only lost 4 matches.  3 of those losses (and one tie) were to the NCAA champion Darkus.  The 4th loss was at a bad time 2nd round of NCAA in an era where you had to get "pulled thru" to continue else sure he might've AA'd and been on a good path to wrestle back for 3rd.  His true So year  lost to Jordan early, beat Jordan mid season and lost to him in the finals (so he did have wins over everyone).    After redshirt year he lost to Sanchez first match back, beat him couple days later and dominated for the next two years.  So (except the Fr tourney loss) he lost to 3 very good wrestlers in 4 years but also beat 2 of them (and tied the other).  Scores would indicate he took down Darkus in at least the tie 7-7 match and also Jordan in at least one match and we are talking takedown category here.  If comparing 4 year record with Tom Brands they are pretty much the same, both lost same number of times.   I didn't look to see who Brands lost to or if any he never took down.  Not saying Brands shouldn't/can't be on the top 5 list but just pointing out to the poster who asked "to pick apart" that if Brands is on the list then Smith should be there.  He was better in the takedown category.  

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2 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:
Yes, I spent a lot of time on that "bad boy", but it was fun.  Included among my best duckunder guys :  John Smith, Nate Carr,  Melvin Douglas, Les Gutches, Ricky Delagatta, Reece Humphrey, Jesse Jantzen, Lincoln McIlravy and John Fritz hit a sweet one on Pat Milkovich in the 1975 NCAA's that I will never forget...underhook on one side, Milk had his wrist on the other side, John jacked up the UH and ducked caught wrist side. (great question MM...you actually made me go back thru that thread...LOL....sorry, but I don't really want to narrow it to 5...probably some other guys with great ducks out there too, but these are some of the best American's anyway)

Angle.  His duck series was pretty similar to Nate Carr's.

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29 minutes ago, ionel said:

Perhaps review original post , was a reply to just the "top 5 takedown" and to poster who said "My list, feel free to pick apart!" to which I provided an example.  But to your reply, Smith wrestled as a true freshman, he was pretty darn good at takedowns as a true freshman and only lost 4 matches.  3 of those losses (and one tie) were to the NCAA champion Darkus.  The 4th loss was at a bad time 2nd round of NCAA in an era where you had to get "pulled thru" to continue else sure he might've AA'd and been on a good path to wrestle back for 3rd.  His true So year  lost to Jordan early, beat Jordan mid season and lost to him in the finals (so he did have wins over everyone).    After redshirt year he lost to Sanchez first match back, beat him couple days later and dominated for the next two years.  So (except the Fr tourney loss) he lost to 3 very good wrestlers in 4 years but also beat 2 of them (and tied the other).  Scores would indicate he took down Darkus in at least the tie 7-7 match and also Jordan in at least one match and we are talking takedown category here.  If comparing 4 year record with Tom Brands they are pretty much the same, both lost same number of times.   I didn't look to see who Brands lost to or if any he never took down.  Not saying Brands shouldn't/can't be on the top 5 list but just pointing out to the poster who asked "to pick apart" that if Brands is on the list then Smith should be there.  He was better in the takedown category.  

Smith was a much different wrestler his last two years.  And I'm picking apart your usage of a freestyle video with post-grad John Smith against college Tom Brands in a college thread.

Prime Smith was better than prime Brands, but I will take 4 year college Brands (3x champ; 4x AA) over a college 2xer and 3x placer (no matter what the excuses).

Brands also racked up huge numbers of takedowns in the third period of a lot of matches.  perhaps more career takedowns than Smith?

I guess my big issue was using the post-college video.  People get better, right? Metcalf had more than one win over Burroughs.  Did he ever lose to Jordan?  He definitely had the better college career than JB.  But JB got better.  It happens.

Smith and Brands are both greats.  Smith is the GOAT.  But don't show a freestyle video with an older Smith beating Brands to prove it.

Edited by AHamilton

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On 4/10/2020 at 9:16 PM, ionel said:

Maybe career award or most attempts and completions but best single foot sweep - Matt Lackey!

I used to go to Nationals every year and would meet up with a friend of mine who was an Illinois fan.  (His cousin was former champ Jon Llewellyn.)

We would trade off buying tickets in the section of our favorite school.

I was sitting in the Illinois section the year that Lackey won. 

I remember Matt coming up to say hi to the Illinois faithful  after his victory. 

While he was sitting on the aisle steps talking to his friends,  someone who was working in that section asked him to move.

Feigning importance, Matt replied, "I guess you didn't see my foot sweep."



 

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