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Just as the title suggests who would you guys and gals put on a top five list? Interested in hearing the opinions of the old timers. Would Spencer Lee crack the list or dare I say even top the list? 

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Well are we judging on College performance only, or are we including Senior level accomplishments? So I am assuming Senior level accomplishments 

(1) Terry Brands

(2) Tom Brands

(3) Lincoln Mcilravy

(4) Barry Davis

(5) Joe Williams 

(6) Royce Alger

Edited by de4856
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3 hours ago, de4856 said:

Well are we judging on College performance only, or are we including Senior level accomplishments? So I am assuming Senior level accomplishments 

(1) Terry Brands

(2) Tom Brands

(3) Lincoln Mcilravy

(4) Barry Davis

(5) Joe Williams 

(6) Royce Alger

Why is Terry ahead of Tom? Tom won more NCAA titles (3)and Olympic Gold vs Terry's 2 NCAA titles and Olympic Bronze...

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1. Brands in the Cross series.

2. Metcalf in the Caldwell match

2. Slaton in the Scott Match

3. McIllravy in the Marianetti match.

5. Perry in the Diffenbach match.

Most Photogenic: Dennis in the Oliver match.

Edited by jackwebster
Forgot my favorite

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Most stunning -- Lou Banach (who went 1, 3,1 in NCAA) weighing  about 215, pinning 400--pound Tab Thacker, pinning 250-pound Bruce Baumgartner, pinning 260-pound Steve "Dr.  Death" Williams, beating 395-pound Mitch Shelton, running over much larger Wayne Cole 3 times, and beating highly-favored Greg Gibson in the Olympic trials.

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Ed Banach not on any list?  Come on.  

1. Tom Brands

2. Barry Davis

3. Ed Banach

4. Lincoln McIlravy

5. Spencer Lee

Then Jim Zalesky, Randy Lewis, Mark Ironside, Eric Juergens, Joe Williams, Mark Perry, Metcalf and others

 

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I'm guessing it depends on your criteria.  I'm ranking based on a combination of collegiate accomplishments/skill/importance to the program:

1.  Tom Brands

2.  Ed Banach

3.  Spencer Lee

4.  Lincoln McIlravy

5.  Brent Metcalf

HM:  Randy Lewis, Mark Ironside, Jim Zalesky, Barry Davis, Joe Williams, Mark Ironside

 

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

I'm guessing it depends on your criteria.  I'm ranking based on a combination of collegiate accomplishments/skill/importance to the program:

1.  Tom Brands

2.  Ed Banach

3.  Spencer Lee

4.  Lincoln McIlravy

5.  Brent Metcalf

HM:  Randy Lewis, Mark Ironside, Jim Zalesky, Barry Davis, Joe Williams, Mark Ironside

 

seems we're on the same page.  Hard to pick some of those. 

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5 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

I don't know if it's even possible for Randy Lewis not to be in the top 5.....his resume from high school thru international is pretty special.

2x champ, and it's asking specifically about best Hawkeye, which I was assuming was college career.  Internationally, he would definitely be in a top 5, I am guessing.  My list wouldn't change much, but obviously Spencer Lee drops out when taking in international too just because of lack of exposure to the olympics so far.  

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

3.  Spencer Lee

5.  Brent Metcalf

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

 

 

 

Neither is even top 10 at Iowa. Lee may be when it's all said and done, but he has one more NCAA and a few world medals to hunt down first.

Edited by bnwtwg

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38 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

 

 

 

Neither is even top 10 at Iowa. Lee may be when it's all said and done, but he has one more NCAA and a few world medals to hunt down first.

I set pretty specific parameters of why I was ranking them, including limiting it to collegiate accomplishments.  Lee and Metcalf are both responsible for revitalizing the program (in different ways).  When Metcalf started, Iowa won the only three titles of Brands' career so far, and he was the engine.  Lee obviously is doing something similar, but is a better wrestler. So....ummm...."hahahahaha"?

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Same story different thread....the answers are different if you say collegiate career vs overall career. It's hard to believe people still don't get this. Read people...read. 

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

I set pretty specific parameters of why I was ranking them, including limiting it to collegiate accomplishments.  Lee and Metcalf are both responsible for revitalizing the program (in different ways).  When Metcalf started, Iowa won the only three titles of Brands' career so far, and he was the engine.  Lee obviously is doing something similar, but is a better wrestler. So....ummm...."hahahahaha"?

Applying the same set of collegiate accomplishments/skill/importance to the program

Terry has to be on the list, considering he has the same number of titles as Lee and Metcalf and has coached the lightweights to outstanding success. 

Joe Williams was a 3x champ, MOW, and Hodge runner-up to Ironside when the voters went for single-season rather than career achievement. Don't let recency bias get in the way of how amazing he was in college or after.

Spencer Lee lost 2020 as much as Metcalf lost his RFr year, but if he delivers as expected next year then I can certainly see him elevating depending on criteria. Folkstyle? Absolutely - he was destroying everyone and anything less than a 5.x+ dominating score next year will be a disappointment. Overall house on fire top 5? He needs to bring home some senior medals.

I would be so bold as to say that Metcalf is not even as important in recent Iowa history as Mark Perry has been. Same number of NCAA titles, but Perry has had a strong impact with HWC for the NCAA team, HWC men, and really opening up this new age of women's wrestling (although that story seems to be unfolding as we banter). Metcalf had the same intimidation factor as Ramos and had the hype, but he took 3 losses and only 1 championship as an upperclassmen. It's really hard to justify a top-5 when it's not exactly like Darrion Caldwell was the same magnitude as Dake/Taylor. I've mentioned this before to you but I'm really not a Brent Metcalf hater. Done a lot of good stuff, still accomplishing tons at ISU and I wouldn't be surprised to see him one day win a trophy as a coach. He just never reached the sky-high ceiling that was set for him.

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10 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Terry has to be on the list, considering he has the same number of titles as Lee and Metcalf and has coached the lightweights to outstanding success. 

Spencer Lee lost 2020 as much as Metcalf lost his RFr year, but if he delivers as expected next year then I can certainly see him elevating depending on criteria. Folkstyle? Absolutely - he was destroying everyone and anything less than a 5.x+ dominating score next year will be a disappointment. Overall house on fire top 5? He needs to bring home some senior medals.

I would be so bold as to say that Metcalf is not even as important in recent Iowa history as Mark Perry has been. Same number of NCAA titles, but Perry has had a strong impact with HWC for the NCAA team, HWC men, and really opening up this new age of women's wrestling (although that story seems to be unfolding as we banter). Metcalf had the same intimidation factor as Ramos and had the hype, but he took 3 losses and only 1 championship as an upperclassmen. It's really hard to justify a top-5 when it's not exactly like Darrion Caldwell was the same magnitude as Dake/Taylor. I've mentioned this before to you but I'm really not a Brent Metcalf hater. Done a lot of good stuff, still accomplishing tons at ISU and I wouldn't be surprised to see him one day win a trophy as a coach. He just never reached the sky-high ceiling that was set for him.

Re: Terry I left him off because he lost the starting spot as a freshman, and because he basically had a lesser version of the Tom's career at the same time, so it resonates less thru history.

Re:  Spencer, there's admittedly a bit of projection involved, but he could be the most important wrestler in Iowa history given the fact that Iowa is facing tougher competition and he has been the engine that has driven them back to the top of the sport.

Re:  Metcalf, I just flat disagree, especially about Perry, but that's the nature of these things.  Purely on collegiate accomplishments, I favor Metcalf, and he was much more of a driving force behind Iowa's return to the top then Perry was.  Still love Mark Perry though.

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Are you going achievements vs who they had to beat to get those achievements? Some dudes have not had to beat the highest level of opponents to win let’s say 3 titles. Look at a guy like Barry for instance. He had to beat Joe McFarland, Gary Bohay and Kevin Darkus to win titles, 3 world silver medalists. That is the level of guys he beat to win. Barry gets pushed down because he’s been gone for 35 years but won 3 titles with 2 of them being true sophomore and true jr.  Randy Lewis got 2nd as a true freshmen and moved up a weight to 134 and majored the defending champion at that weight in the finals.

1. Tom Brands

2. Barry Davis

3. Randy Lewis

4. Chris Campbell

5. Lincoln McIlravy

Edited by Lunaticfringe

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19 minutes ago, Lunaticfringe said:

Are you going achievements vs who they had to beat to get those achievements? Some dudes have not had to beat the highest level of opponents to win let’s say 3 titles. Look at a guy like Barry for instance. He had to beat Joe McFarland, Gary Bohay and Kevin Darkus to win titles, 3 world silver medalists. That is the level of guys he beat to win. Barry gets pushed down because he’s been gone for 35 years but won 3 titles with 2 of them being true sophomore and true jr.  Randy Lewis got 2nd as a true freshmen and moved up a weight to 134 and majored the defending champion at that weight in the finals.

1. Tom Brands

2. Barry Davis

3. Randy Lewis

4. Chris Campbell

5. Lincoln McIlravy

I'll freely admit I'm mostly ranking the older guys on paper, most of them wrestled before or close to when I was born, let alone became a wrestling fan.

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5 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

I don't know if it's even possible for Randy Lewis not to be in the top 5.....his resume from high school thru international is pretty special.

 

5 hours ago, Iscored2onu said:

2x champ, and it's asking specifically about best Hawkeye, which I was assuming was college career.  Internationally, he would definitely be in a top 5, I am guessing.  My list wouldn't change much, but obviously Spencer Lee drops out when taking in international too just because of lack of exposure to the olympics so far.  

In college Lewis went 2-1-1-7   He lost to Mike Land in the finals his freshman year who had a huge win streak, and his senior year he suffered one of the worst injuries you can imagine, and still came back to take 2nd in the BIG meet and 7th at the NCAA meet where he was not even close to 100%.  I have an article somewhere in my office upstairs, but I just found this within this website, which is close to what I was looking for....Maybe Randy doesn't belong in the top 5, BUT MAYBE HE DOES.....Just sayin.....it's all good!!!  Fadz

Posted May 24, 2013

Lewis wrestled 24 NCAA champs, defeating 21 of them at one time or another, 16 after they were NCAA Champs. He beat 6 of them during his college career in college matches. No telling of anyone else who has beaten more NCAA champs in his career. The three NCAA champs whom he DID NOT beat were Nate Carr, Brian Dolph, and Eddie Urbano  (and those guys were really a wt. class bigger than Randy). He was 0-2 against Nate Carr and 0-1 against Dolph and Urbano ( up a weight from his last Olympic berth). He pinned 8 NCAA champs and won by major or better 13 times against NCAA Champs. Obviously many of these matches were in freestyle. At one time or other, he scored back points on every NCAA Champ the Randy ever wrestled, except for John Azevedo, whom he defeated 20-14 in, at the time- the highest scoring match in NCAA finals history. His career record against NCAA Champions is 59-26-1. Here is a list of champions defeated by Lewis and his record against them: Jim Gibbons 4-2, Joe Gibbons 1-0, John Smith 1-3, Leroy Smith 4-5, Tom Brands 2-0, Jesse Reyes 2-0, Jim Jordan 6-0, Darryl Burley 4-1-1, CD Mock 3-0, John Azevedo 1-0, Mike Land 5-5, Mike Frick 1-0, Nick Gallo 3-0, Dan Cuestas 2-0, Andre Metzger 2-5, Scott Turner 1-0, Clar Anderson 2-0, Terry Steiner 2-0, Jack Reinwand 3-0, Ken Mallory 1-0, Matt Demaray 1-1.

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3 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

 

In college Lewis went 2-1-1-7   He lost to Mike Land in the finals his freshman year who had a huge win streak, and his senior year he suffered one of the worst injuries you can imagine, and still came back to take 2nd in the BIG meet and 7th at the NCAA meet where he was not even close to 100%.  I have an article somewhere in my office upstairs, but I just found this within this website, which is close to what I was looking for....Maybe Randy doesn't belong in the top 5, BUT MAYBE HE DOES.....Just sayin.....it's all good!!!  Fadz

Posted May 24, 2013

Lewis wrestled 24 NCAA champs, defeating 21 of them at one time or another, 16 after they were NCAA Champs. He beat 6 of them during his college career in college matches. No telling of anyone else who has beaten more NCAA champs in his career. The three NCAA champs whom he DID NOT beat were Nate Carr, Brian Dolph, and Eddie Urbano  (and those guys were really a wt. class bigger than Randy). He was 0-2 against Nate Carr and 0-1 against Dolph and Urbano ( up a weight from his last Olympic berth). He pinned 8 NCAA champs and won by major or better 13 times against NCAA Champs. Obviously many of these matches were in freestyle. At one time or other, he scored back points on every NCAA Champ the Randy ever wrestled, except for John Azevedo, whom he defeated 20-14 in, at the time- the highest scoring match in NCAA finals history. His career record against NCAA Champions is 59-26-1. Here is a list of champions defeated by Lewis and his record against them: Jim Gibbons 4-2, Joe Gibbons 1-0, John Smith 1-3, Leroy Smith 4-5, Tom Brands 2-0, Jesse Reyes 2-0, Jim Jordan 6-0, Darryl Burley 4-1-1, CD Mock 3-0, John Azevedo 1-0, Mike Land 5-5, Mike Frick 1-0, Nick Gallo 3-0, Dan Cuestas 2-0, Andre Metzger 2-5, Scott Turner 1-0, Clar Anderson 2-0, Terry Steiner 2-0, Jack Reinwand 3-0, Ken Mallory 1-0, Matt Demaray 1-1.

good info.  No doubt about it, he's one of my favorite hawkeyes and absolutely a top guy.  With so many top notch quality to pick from, it's a friendly debate with any selection.  Hard to leave out the likes of Ed Banach (1,1,2,1), Tom (4,1,1,1), Barry Davis(7,1,1,1), Zalesky (5,1,1,1), McIlravy (1,1,2,1) Spencer (1,1,1***,?....yes, I gave spencer an asterisk #1).  As you can see, this is why I had Randy outside the top 5.  But imo, spencer, randy, juergens, scarpello, Joe Williams, Ironside could all slide in there.  Heck, leaving Joe Williams off with a (7,1,1,1) may be more of an oversight for me.  

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IMO have to put 4 timers in front of 3 timers

1. Lincoln McIlravy  3X champion - 4X finalist - 1, 1, 2, 1

2. Ed Banach 3X champion - 4X finalist - 1, 1, 2, 1 - lost to Mark Schultz 3X champion in only finals loss 

3. Randy Lewis 2X champion, 3X finalist - 2, 1, 1, 7 - got 7th his senior year wrestling with 1 arm.

4. Tom Brands 3X champion - 4, 1, 1, 1

5. Jim Zalesky 3X champion - 5, 1, 1, 1

6. Barry Davis 3X champion - 7, 1, 1, 1

7. Joe Williams 3X champion - 7, 1, 1, 1

8. Duane Goldman 1X champion - 4X finalist - 2, 2, 2, 1 finals losses to Mark Schultz 3X champion, Jim Scherr, Dan Chaid 2X finalist

9. Mark Perry 2X champion - 3X finalist - 2, 3, 1, 1 -  2nd to Johny Hendricks 2X champion - 3rd to Ben Askren 2X champion 4X finalist and Jake Herbert 2X champion 3X finalist

10. Mark Ironside 2X champion - 6, 3, 1, 1 -  

11. Terry Brands 2X champion - 3X finalist 1, 2, 1 - 137-7 career record

12. Brent Metcalf 2X Champion - 3X finalist - 1, 2, 1 - 108-3 career record

13. TJ Williams 2X champion - 1, 3, 1 - 98-1 career record

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