Why Folk/Collegiate/Scholastic Style for The U.S.?

[Tofurky 596]

Why do most wrestling fans in the United States cling so tightly to our singular scholastic/collegiate style of wrestling? This style isn't wrestled anywhere else on earth, is strictly tied to educational institutions (if you want to compete in it, you have to be registered in school at any level), and has zero competitive option beyond college. Given that many of the board members here can see the obvious danger of what a shaky economic market due to a pandemic is foreshadowing for non-revenue collegiate sports, why are we as a sports community not looking for more suitable options for the longevity of wrestling in this country?

[Boompa 171]

48 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

Why do most wrestling fans in the United States cling so tightly to our singular scholastic/collegiate style of wrestling? This style isn't wrestled anywhere else on earth, is strictly tied to educational institutions (if you want to compete in it, you have to be registered in school at any level), and has zero competitive option beyond college. Given that many of the board members here can see the obvious danger of what a shaky economic market due to a pandemic is foreshadowing for non-revenue collegiate sports, why are we as a sports community not looking for more suitable options for the longevity of wrestling in this country?

Same reason why sports like football and basketball are far more popular in the U.S. than the rest of the world, we invented it.

The NCAA championships and state championships all around the country are proof folkstyle is the superior style for fan attendance.  Ever see Russian Nationals?  Our OTT's or WTT's?  How about the world championships?  Nowhere near the fan attendance, internet and TV viewership and media attention.

You are like those soccer fanatics who cannot understand why soccer, despite being the vastly most popular sport in the world, cannot gain solid traction here in the U.S.

It's simple, it's not American.

Every spring we see the freestyle people pop out and start questioning why folkstyle.  You already lost the argument that folkstyle hurts our senior level success because it hasn't, a lack of RTC's and $$$ for our athletes to continue competing was the culprit all along.

The one thing I do not miss with the coronavirus is coaching at freestyle qualifiers and having to look at the freestyle officials with their pony tails, tattoo sleeves and smoking outside the front doors during breaks, because the freestyle season is the only time you see those guys.  They are strangely absent during the winter.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Boompa

[TexRef 63]

7 hours ago, Boompa said:

The one thing I do not miss with the coronavirus is coaching at freestyle qualifiers and having to look at the freestyle officials with their pony tails, tattoo sleeves and smoking outside the front doors during breaks, because the freestyle season is the only time you see those guys.  They are strangely absent during the winter.

Boompa-Are you one of those guys that won't give into the Metric system either? I haven't! Nobody likes a quitter! 

[Lurker 1,396]

8 hours ago, Boompa said:

Same reason why sports like football and basketball are far more popular in the U.S. than the rest of the world, we invented it.

The NCAA championships and state championships all around the country are proof folkstyle is the superior style for fan attendance.  Ever see Russian Nationals?  Our OTT's or WTT's?  How about the world championships?  Nowhere near the fan attendance, internet and TV viewership and media attention.

You are like those soccer fanatics who cannot understand why soccer, despite being the vastly most popular sport in the world, cannot gain solid traction here in the U.S.

It's simple, it's not American.

Every spring we see the freestyle people pop out and start questioning why folkstyle.  You already lost the argument that folkstyle hurts our senior level success because it hasn't, a lack of RTC's and $$$ for our athletes to continue competing was the culprit all along.

The one thing I do not miss with the coronavirus is coaching at freestyle qualifiers and having to look at the freestyle officials with their pony tails, tattoo sleeves and smoking outside the front doors during breaks, because the freestyle season is the only time you see those guys.  They are strangely absent during the winter.

......When you can’t answer a straight forward question without insulting people with a different opinion. 

[TripNSweep 470]

25 minutes ago, TexRef said:

Boompa-Are you one of those guys that won't give into the Metric system either? I haven't! Nobody likes a quitter! 

His car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way he likes it!

[AKHUNTER 290]

maybe where you are from there is no folk style outside of schools but in the west there are a lot of kid folk tournaments.

[ConnorsDad 570]

On 4/15/2020 at 6:21 AM, Boompa said:

Same reason why sports like football and basketball are far more popular in the U.S. than the rest of the world, we invented it.

The NCAA championships and state championships all around the country are proof folkstyle is the superior style for fan attendance.  Ever see Russian Nationals?  Our OTT's or WTT's?  How about the world championships?  Nowhere near the fan attendance, internet and TV viewership and media attention.

You are like those soccer fanatics who cannot understand why soccer, despite being the vastly most popular sport in the world, cannot gain solid traction here in the U.S.

It's simple, it's not American.

Every spring we see the freestyle people pop out and start questioning why folkstyle.  You already lost the argument that folkstyle hurts our senior level success because it hasn't, a lack of RTC's and $$$ for our athletes to continue competing was the culprit all along.

The one thing I do not miss with the coronavirus is coaching at freestyle qualifiers and having to look at the freestyle officials with their pony tails, tattoo sleeves and smoking outside the front doors during breaks, because the freestyle season is the only time you see those guys.  They are strangely absent during the winter.

Just because they wrestled folk style is not why there are more popular. I'm talking about NCAA and state tournaments. Those things are more popular because people get behind a school and root for them and their friends & family. Do you really not think that Iowa would have just as many fans at the National Tournament if it was freestyle? Of course they would and state tournaments would be the same. People would be rooting on their team and kids regardless of what style it is unless it was just completely ridiculous.

Edited April 16, 2020 by ConnorsDad

[GockeS 403]

why ask why?

why not?

[silverback 48]

I think we should change Freestyle to Folkstyle.  Freestyle has poor attendance, seems like few care to watch it.  

 

[MadMardigain 1,268]

Well if we end up going through the Corona revolution some ADs want there may not be as much of a diversity anymore if the sport wants to keep going at a school level. I’m a much better competitors and a bigger fan of Folkstyle but Still feel Freestlye maybe the route for survival, that is if the Olympics will continue to support it.  

Edited April 16, 2020 by MadMardigain

[Tofurky 596]

13 hours ago, Boompa said:

Same reason why sports like football and basketball are far more popular in the U.S. than the rest of the world, we invented it.

The NCAA championships and state championships all around the country are proof folkstyle is the superior style for fan attendance.  Ever see Russian Nationals?  Our OTT's or WTT's?  How about the world championships?  Nowhere near the fan attendance, internet and TV viewership and media attention.

You are like those soccer fanatics who cannot understand why soccer, despite being the vastly most popular sport in the world, cannot gain solid traction here in the U.S.

It's simple, it's not American.

Every spring we see the freestyle people pop out and start questioning why folkstyle.  You already lost the argument that folkstyle hurts our senior level success because it hasn't, a lack of RTC's and $$$ for our athletes to continue competing was the culprit all along.

The one thing I do not miss with the coronavirus is coaching at freestyle qualifiers and having to look at the freestyle officials with their pony tails, tattoo sleeves and smoking outside the front doors during breaks, because the freestyle season is the only time you see those guys.  They are strangely absent during the winter.

@Boompa, do we know one another on a personal level? What's with the ad hominem arguments from you?

Football is the grandson of rugby. It is what it is now thanks to rule changes, though some rules remain the same and many of the names do, too. That's not news.

I don't believe that you can si.pky say Russian Nationals doesn't draw. If it was consistently held it Dagestan or Ossetia, the numbers would be different. Do the folks in St. Petersburg or Moscow care about wrestling as they do in the Caucasus? We already know the answer is no.

NCAAs and state tournaments draw more because they are tied to schools and most people paying their property taxes. Far fewer kids are involved in Freestyle and Greco not because U.S. scholastic/collegiate is "superior", but because it is an additional cost to families and the vast majority of kids aren't dedicated to being year-round wrestlers. That's not a secret either.

Worlds is not exactly a secret either: it's expensive to attend even when it is in your own country.

The last Olympic team Trials in Iowa City had roughly 55,000 people attend the four sessions. A complete sellout would have been 62,000. Think about how few Hawkeyes were there and how many less athletes were competing than NCAAs and the numbers were almost the same.

To your assessment that the answer was simple: lack of RTCs and $$$... okay. Now think of how dominant the U.S. would be and potential professional options available post-college if the system was Free and Greco. U.S. depth would be immense, more people would watch and more people would follow clubs because more people would be competing past college. It's not that difficult to understand.

ConnorsDad is right, you can change the style and Iowa fans, PSU, The OSU, OSU, et al, will all support their teams and their guys just the same at the college level, and probably even more past college as there is a seamless transition from college to the senior level, not a style change many do not understand.

Will U.S. collegiate/scholastic be more immune to what is ahead of ADs decisions? I guess we will find out.

[BigTenFanboy 1,710]

We split hairs like crazy over subjective calls when it comes to folkstyle officiating.. it would get exponentially worse with freestyle.

[Lurker 1,396]

8 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

We split hairs like crazy over subjective calls when it comes to folkstyle officiating.. it would get exponentially worse with freestyle.

No sure that exponentially worse is possible, just to your point of how it is now.

BUT...at least international styles utilize two out of three agreeing on a call, and a review is by a separate.....instead of one person making a call and deciding their own review.

[silverback 48]

Folkstyle has two ref's.   Same - same.

 

[Lurker 1,396]

3 hours ago, silverback said:

Folkstyle has two ref's.   Same - same.

 

Not at all same same.  I mean first of all two is not the same as three.  But much more to the point, second official has no scoring or caution/stalling calls to make.  The only thing he does is give his view, only if the referee asks for it, and identify illegal hold.  The second official can disagree with every single call the main official makes, but we would never know, and the main officials call will always stand. Not at all same same.

[jackwebster 110]

Have you guys ever seen the wrestling matches associated with the Igbo's New Yam Festival? I imagine Igali grew up with it. Indian sand wrestling associated with Ashtanga yoga? I think I heard  Sushil Kumar talk about it. Turkish oil stuff? Mongol8an Bokh? Scottish backhold? Irish Collar-and-elbow? Catch-as-catch-can? We all have a folkstyle.

I do think you raise a good point regarding our folkstyle's connection the educational system. I want to see sports and school part ways. How? Idk.

[RichB 191]

How many nations have there own traditional style? Turkey, Iran, Mongolia, At least 2 major ones each in, China and India,  probably dozens and dozens in Russia and the former SU republic. Africa, South America, Scotland probably has a style involving rocks and heads, England cheese, etc. Free and Greco are just the Lingua Franca of wrestling

   

[Tofurky 596]

We can go around and around about various "folkstyles" of wrestling the world over, but I have been very, very specific here about which one I am talking about, how it is tied to educational systems in the United States, how it has a delineating date with graduation from college (overwhelmingly undergraduate programs), and zero professional option for competitors.

While Freestyle and Greco-Roman may be the "Lingua Franca of wrestling, RichB, they're global and offer professional options to the athletes who compete in those styles. I suspect that the IOC is (not-so-)secretly hoping and praying the U.S. adopts the two styles for greater revenue streams every four years.

Aside from Boompa's semi-jingoistic assessment of why this country sticks to the scholastic/collegiate form of the sport (in which this nation alone competes), would it not make more sense for the future and growth of this sport to look at rule changes which allow for long-term sustainability, especially as the sport continues to lose participants and opportunities?

[jackwebster 110]

I think US folkstyle has more "pro opportunities" than most other folkstyles, the opportunities are just in the form of coaching. 

Most folkstyle is just a cultural thing that the Herder's volk do when they are volking out. There are no professional oportunities. 

In most places, there are few/zero professional opportunities in freestyle either.

The former state sponsored programs in the Soviet bloc or the oligarch stuff going on now in the former Soviet states or whatever happens in Iran are outliers.  This professionalization was built on the back of strong folkstyle cultures that evolved. I mean, the Soviets invent Sambo in the 20's (?) by combining a bunch of different folkstyles and running it through centralized planning.

I would argue that the success of freestyle in the Caucuses and it's professionalization is a result of a kind of wrestling samizdat, a folkstyle protest of Soviet occupation that ironically brought glory to the state.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by jackwebster

[GockeS 403]

3 hours ago, Tofurky said:

We can go around and around about various "folkstyles" of wrestling the world over, but I have been very, very specific here about which one I am talking about, how it is tied to educational systems in the United States, how it has a delineating date with graduation from college (overwhelmingly undergraduate programs), and zero professional option for competitors.

While Freestyle and Greco-Roman may be the "Lingua Franca of wrestling, RichB, they're global and offer professional options to the athletes who compete in those styles. I suspect that the IOC is (not-so-)secretly hoping and praying the U.S. adopts the two styles for greater revenue streams every four years.

Aside from Boompa's semi-jingoistic assessment of why this country sticks to the scholastic/collegiate form of the sport (in which this nation alone competes), would it not make more sense for the future and growth of this sport to look at rule changes which allow for long-term sustainability, especially as the sport continues to lose participants and opportunities?

and where do we have to go to find these professional opportunities? 

[TobusRex 1,836]

Every year with the whining about FS.  People in the USA grow up doing folkstyle, and that is the kind of wrestling they are used to watching. It's that simple. Plus those of us who actually were pretty good folkstyle wrestlers look at FS as a "weak sister" with no mat wrestling. I hate FS, I consider it weak, a halfsport at  best. So...probably 90% of people want to stick with folk because it's "what they know" and the rest want to stick with folk because FS is wimpy with no mat work.

Edited April 17, 2020 by TobusRex

[Mphillips 707]

Nice work TRex!  LOL...

[RichB 191]

Where, the 2028 Olympics is W-Free,M-Free=M=Greco to be held? Right now there Are 3 NBA/NHL  arenas (including the semi-active Forum, and the Ducks site in Anaheim), I ve heard of another for the Clippers,   WE now get at least  ~ 15,000 a session for NCAA,  will we get that for Olympic Styles? 1984. There were 7500 seats, maybe 7,000  sold for Free, But probably only 5000 in the seats. Admittedly that was partly because it was an hour bus ride from the Coliseum, so a lot of non-wrestling fans got a random package that included tickets for a sport they knew nothing about, so they did not show up,  

[TobusRex 1,836]

33 minutes ago, RichB said:

Where, the 2028 Olympics is W-Free,M-Free=M=Greco to be held? Right now there Are 3 NBA/NHL  arenas (including the semi-active Forum, and the Ducks site in Anaheim), I ve heard of another for the Clippers,   WE now get at least  ~ 15,000 a session for NCAA,  will we get that for Olympic Styles? 1984. There were 7500 seats, maybe 7,000  sold for Free, But probably only 5000 in the seats. Admittedly that was partly because it was an hour bus ride from the Coliseum, so a lot of non-wrestling fans got a random package that included tickets for a sport they knew nothing about, so they did not show up,  

I can promise you one thing about "non-wrestling fans" who get tickets to the wrestling events: they will NEVER feel the desire to watch wrestling again. I wrestled for 2 decades and it was all I could do not to turn the TV off the last time I watched FS from the Olympics. SO DULL, and that's coming from a guy who actually LIKES wrestling. Imagine some guy who has never wrestled, doesn't understand the rules or the scoring? I, for one, wasn't shocked that the IOC talked about canceling FS wrestling. The ratings must be through the floor for televised Olympic wrestling.

[Tofurky 596]

7 hours ago, GockeS said:

and where do we have to go to find these professional opportunities? 

In the U.S., we don't ask baseball players to grow up in that sport, then switch to cricket for professional opportunities. We don't ask football players to grow up and play rugby at after college. There's consistency all the way from youth to professional ranks for basketball, soccer, etc. Why would we do any different in wrestling?

Professional leagues exist overseas in nations with far fewer citizens, far fewer participants, and, presumably, less money than exists in the United States. A seamless transition from youth through professional creates more opportunity for athletes, more fans, more viewership, and more investment from many sectors of society.