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Tofurky

Why Folk/Collegiate/Scholastic Style for The U.S.?

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so again i ask...where are these professional opportunities you were speaking of

yes i know a few guys went over to some german wrestling leagues

they have similar in italy for football, but only allow two americans on the team... are there really opportunities 

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6 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Every year with the whining about FS.  People in the USA grow up doing folkstyle, and that is the kind of wrestling they are used to watching. It's that simple. Plus those of us who actually were pretty good folkstyle wrestlers look at FS as a "weak sister" with no mat wrestling. I hate FS, I consider it weak, a halfsport at  best. So...probably 90% of people want to stick with folk because it's "what they know" and the rest want to stick with folk because FS is wimpy with no mat work.

Allow me to paraphrase, "we've always done it this way." That's one hell of a motto and great for future sustainability of any business or program.

I typically like your posts, TobusRex, but I'm baffled by your post. Please, allow me ask you this: do you think that if U.S. scholastic/collegiate added the international step out rule as it exists at that level, and/or had, say, a "15 second turn clock" before they put wrestlers back on their feet, 90% of participants currently would leave the sport because of the rule changes? You don't seriously believe that, do you?

As to your assessment of why you didn't wrestle Free or Greco, that argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. I personally know more than a handful of former D1 NCAA champions/All-Americans who were world team members and medalists. Having conversed with them about this debate, they would wholly disagree with your assessment of Freestyle.

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3 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

99% of high school wrestlers will not compete past HS. They do it to be tough guys at school or in their neighborhood and freestyle isn't as good for that. 

According to whom?

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5 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

99% of high school wrestlers will not compete past HS. They do it to be tough guys at school or in their neighborhood and freestyle isn't as good for that. 

oi would disagree... i think some are SCARED of FS... b/c of the throws and the rip and tear attitude... 

you dont need control.. .just expose the guy... 

there are several moves/holds which would be illegal in folk... 

and some vice versa

Edited by GockeS

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5 minutes ago, GockeS said:

so again i ask...where are these professional opportunities you were speaking of

yes i know a few guys went over to some german wrestling leagues

they have similar in italy for football, but only allow two americans on the team... are there really opportunities 

I know what you asked, GockeS, and I answered your question.

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Just now, Tofurky said:

I know what you asked, GockeS, and I answered your question.

no you started in about... why would we do this and then change later...

thats not talking about pro opportunities

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

oi would disagree... i think some are SCARED of FS... b/c of the throws and the rip and tear attitude... 

you dont need control.. .just expose the guy... 

Have you ever tried to "just expose the guy" who has been training in the sport for a while? I'm not talking Olympic level competition, but competent high school kids. "you dont need control [sic]" is such an old, tired, invalid argument.

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20 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

 

Professional leagues exist overseas in nations with far fewer citizens, far fewer participants, and, presumably, less money than exists in the United States. A seamless transition from youth through professional creates more opportunity for athletes, more fans, more viewership, and more investment from many sectors of society.

how many americans have access to any of this? 

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3 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

Have you ever tried to "just expose the guy" who has been training in the sport for a while? I'm not talking Olympic level competition, but competent high school kids. "you dont need control [sic]" is such an old, tired, invalid argument.

dont be disingenuous. you know what i mean.

and yes, by not having complete control..that makes many situations more dangerous... especially in crunch time

when it's time to rip and tear

Edited by GockeS

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Just now, GockeS said:

dont be disingenuous. you know what i mean.

and yes, by not having complete control..that makes many situations more dangerous... especially in crunch time

The only person here being disingenuous is you, GockeS. You can't support your argument. "you know what i mean" does not bolster your claim.

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Just now, Tofurky said:

The only person here being disingenuous is you, GockeS. You can't support your argument. "you know what i mean" does not bolster your claim.

correct me if im wrong:

in folk. a person must have taken the other down to score back points... except in the new danger situation, which still requires the control to hold the person in the position for a count of three.

in free. a person must only expose the back quickly beyond 90 with NO CONTROL.. including hip tilts, crotch lifts etc... in  a defensive position

so claim bolstered.

tell me about all these pro opportunities that americans have access to 

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8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

how many americans have access to any of this? 

Reread what I said. I'm talking about a real future for wrestling opportunities for many more athletes than we have now.

The Olympic styles are not something to be afraid of. It's okay if you're not well versed in them. There's always opportunity to change that.

No one said "throw away" U.S. scholastic/collegiate. However, it has been experiencing lean years in the last decade and the current financial crisis is only going to make things worse.

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3 minutes ago, GockeS said:

correct me if im wrong:

in folk. a person must have taken the other down to score back points... except in the new danger situation, which still requires the control to hold the person in the position for a count of three.

in free. a person must only expose the back quickly beyond 90 with NO CONTROL.. including hip tilts, crotch lifts etc... in  a defensive position

so claim bolstered.

tell me about all these pro opportunities that americans have access to 

And here is where you pretend as if head pinches, hip tilts, crotch lifts, leg laces, et al are simple maneuvers. Again, sir, have you ever tried to hit any of those on a high school wrestler who is competent, but certainly not world class, in the international styles? It's as easy as snapping your fingers and doesn't require any level of skill or tactic, right?

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2 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

Reread what I said. I'm talking about a real future for wrestling opportunities for many more athletes than we have now.

The Olympic styles are not something to be afraid of. It's okay if you're not well versed in them. There's always opportunity to change that.

 

you were telling us about all these pro opportunities across the seas... 

and not afraid.. i said SOME people..

you were saying something about not reading... and it shows

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Just now, Tofurky said:

And here is where you pretend as if head pinches, hip tilts, crotch lifts, leg laces, et al are simple maneuvers. Again, sir, have you ever tried to hit any of those on a high school wrestler who is competent, but certainly not world class, in the international styles? It's as easy as snapping your fingers and doesn't require any level of skill or tactic, right?

does that mean that there is control...and that you hold the man on his back... or not.

it may take some effort and strenght, cunning guile and a set up... but to score... you dont have to hold him there... hence no control.

good day.

 

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

you were telling us about all these pro opportunities across the seas... 

and not afraid.. i said SOME people..

you were saying something about not reading... and it shows

I stated that they exist and you agreed. I never stated anything "about all these pro opportunities across the seas..." Those, GockeS, are your words.

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19 minutes ago, GockeS said:

does that mean that there is control...and that you hold the man on his back... or not.

it may take some effort and strenght, cunning guile and a set up... but to score... you dont have to hold him there... hence no control.

good day.

 

Yes, GockeS, that means there is control of your opponent's body to execute those moves and to score those points.

Here you are again being disingenuous, unless you truly are ignorant to how it works. I don't know. I don't know you or your experience with the Olympic styles.

Since you mentioned "holding a man on his back", pinning is not unique to U.S. scholastic/collegiate. They happen internationally, too. Kyle Snyder can tell you about it from January when he was pinned by the Iranian. Zain Retherord was recently pinned by an Argentinian wrestler. Jordan Burroughs pins guys when the opportunity arises. This isn't peewee wrestling we are talking about, GockeS. I'm not sure if you're aware of it or not, but the touch fall in Free and GR is gone. Control is required to make that happen, too.

GockeS, please move along. You've contributed nothing to this thread.

Edited by Tofurky

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3 hours ago, Tofurky said:

Allow me to paraphrase, "we've always done it this way." That's one hell of a motto and great for future sustainability of any business or program.

I typically like your posts, TobusRex, but I'm baffled by your post. Please, allow me ask you this: do you think that if U.S. scholastic/collegiate added the international step out rule as it exists at that level, and/or had, say, a "15 second turn clock" before they put wrestlers back on their feet, 90% of participants currently would leave the sport because of the rule changes? You don't seriously believe that, do you?

As to your assessment of why you didn't wrestle Free or Greco, that argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. I personally know more than a handful of former D1 NCAA champions/All-Americans who were world team members and medalists. Having conversed with them about this debate, they would wholly disagree with your assessment of Freestyle.

 

 

Thanks for the compliment on my posts, I feel the same about yours. I can't speak as to what other fans would do, but if they implemented that 15 second turn clock I'd walk away and not look back.  Also I never said I never wrestled FS, either. I DID wrestle FS on multiple occasions, once for an entire season (at age 26), and I had a FS record of 18-3, counting 2 forfeits. This isn't a case of somebody not liking something he wasn't good at, this is a case of a guy not liking something because the other way is better. Folk is a balanced form of wrestling, not just takedowns.  I like the fact that after I earn a takedown I'm given a chance to go to work on the other guy, see if I can get him on his shoulders. You FS guys seem to have forgotten that pinning the other guy is the classic method of winning a wrestling match, not beating him 1-0 on a stepout. 

Edited by TobusRex

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I think it comes down to lack of experience. Everyone that has ever wrestled started with folk style. Most, never tried FS and even less tried greco. Now think of all the coaches, from youth league to college who are, and some that aren’t, experienced enough in folk style to actually teach it. Now take that number and divide it by 99 and that’s how many of them are qualified to teach/coach FS/GR.

There just aren’t enough coaches to make a systematic change that eliminates folk style. Kids, today, aren’t going to listen to a coach who can’t talk about their personal successes.

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I think it comes down to personal preference.  I agree with T-Rex in that I think folkstyle is more entertaining than freestyle (although I think freestyle in the 70's and 80's was more interesting than it is today).  Part of the problem is that FILA was constantly fiddling with the rules (and generally making them worse).  Now that they are UWW, they have at least made changes for the better.  IMO, freestyle scoring is much more subjective than folkstyle, which can lead to national politics affecting the outcome.  For example, Franklin Gomez was leading the wrestler from Ukraine and initiated a leg attack that went out of bounds.  The Ukraine guy did what I call (in folkstyle) the JV heavyweight roll, where he rolled backwards (exposing his back) and then exposed Gomez's back, before he finished on top.  In folkstyle, it would have been a clear takedown for Franklin.  In the Olympics, there were heated arguments between the ref and mat judges about who initiated the move, with one side arguing for a takedown to the back for Franklin and the other side (who won the debate) saying it was 2 for the Ukraine wrestler, who ended up winning the match because of that call.  Then he ended up beating a Mongolian wrestler in the bronze medal match.  The Mongolian coaches were so incensed that their guy got ripped off that they stripped down to their underwear on the mat.  While it was an entertaining spectacle, it didn't reflect well on the sport.

Every argument made in favor of freestyle (other than it is an Olympic style) can also be made for folkstyle.

If you note the decline in the number of college teams (due in large part to the big money sports escalation in spending and how the AD's respond to Title IX), then you also have to acknowledge the cuts in Olympic weights from 10 to 6 to make room for women's freestyle, in large part due to NBC's Olympic philosophy that they need to cater to the female viewer because they think the guys will watch no matter what they broadcast.  That's why they have two zillion talking head segments and concentrate on the "pretty sports", as my wife calls them.  The "testosterone sports", such as wrestling, boxing, weightlifting, karate, etc. are relegated to the wee hours of the morning (with the possible exception of female competitors), while synchronized swimming, rhythmic gymnastics, equestrian events, etc. get primetime coverage.  For that matter, there was talk of cutting wrestling from the Games altogether.

Regarding pro opportunities, mat wrestling is very important in MMA, so folkstyle is better in that regard.

Even with the cuts, colleges still have ten weight classes.  Of course, so does freestyle 3/4ths of the time, but every fourth year wrestlers have to decide whether to go up or down in weight if their weight class isn't an Olympic weight.

How many freestyle matches were decide by who was put on the shot clock?  You may complain about folkstyle stalling calls being inconsistent, but they have nothing on shot clock calls.  Even if the ref splits two calls, with one to each wrestler, the guy who doesn't score during the second shot clock loses, since ties are decided by who scores last.  Of course, this is still an improvement over the ball grab, but that's not saying much.

The bottom line is that the whole argument is like a vegetarian and carnivore arguing about diet.  Each is convinced that their preference is better.

 

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17 hours ago, Tofurky said:

Yes, GockeS, that means there is control of your opponent's body to execute those moves and to score those points.

Here you are again being disingenuous, unless you truly are ignorant to how it works. I don't know. I don't know you or your experience with the Olympic styles.

Since you mentioned "holding a man on his back", pinning is not unique to U.S. scholastic/collegiate. They happen internationally, too. Kyle Snyder can tell you about it from January when he was pinned by the Iranian. Zain Retherord was recently pinned by an Argentinian wrestler. Jordan Burroughs pins guys when the opportunity arises. This isn't peewee wrestling we are talking about, GockeS. I'm not sure if you're aware of it or not, but the touch fall in Free and GR is gone. Control is required to make that happen, too.

GockeS, please move along. You've contributed nothing to this thread.

speaking of not understanding...  you seem not to

you dont have to hold anyone on their back. that is the meaning of control.

so he can't get off it.  and lol at 'the touch fall is gone'. and the idea of the 'slip' throw... speaking of not having control

by the way i did move on. 

i keep bolstering my point with facts, and you keep asking if i ever wrestled..as if this bolsters  your position somehow..

its just an insult and a cop out 

 

and as far as the contributin nothing... um, this thread is about why folk and not free

you just really dont understand much do you.

 

 

Edited by GockeS

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