Jump to content
Tofurky

Why Folk/Collegiate/Scholastic Style for The U.S.?

Recommended Posts

18 hours ago, Bob1974 said:

I think it comes down to personal preference.  I agree with T-Rex in that I think folkstyle is more entertaining than freestyle (although I think freestyle in the 70's and 80's was more interesting than it is today).  Part of the problem is that FILA was constantly fiddling with the rules (and generally making them worse).  Now that they are UWW, they have at least made changes for the better.  IMO, freestyle scoring is much more subjective than folkstyle, which can lead to national politics affecting the outcome.  For example, Franklin Gomez was leading the wrestler from Ukraine and initiated a leg attack that went out of bounds.  The Ukraine guy did what I call (in folkstyle) the JV heavyweight roll, where he rolled backwards (exposing his back) and then exposed Gomez's back, before he finished on top.  In folkstyle, it would have been a clear takedown for Franklin.  In the Olympics, there were heated arguments between the ref and mat judges about who initiated the move, with one side arguing for a takedown to the back for Franklin and the other side (who won the debate) saying it was 2 for the Ukraine wrestler, who ended up winning the match because of that call.  Then he ended up beating a Mongolian wrestler in the bronze medal match.  The Mongolian coaches were so incensed that their guy got ripped off that they stripped down to their underwear on the mat.  While it was an entertaining spectacle, it didn't reflect well on the sport.

Every argument made in favor of freestyle (other than it is an Olympic style) can also be made for folkstyle.

If you note the decline in the number of college teams (due in large part to the big money sports escalation in spending and how the AD's respond to Title IX), then you also have to acknowledge the cuts in Olympic weights from 10 to 6 to make room for women's freestyle, in large part due to NBC's Olympic philosophy that they need to cater to the female viewer because they think the guys will watch no matter what they broadcast.  That's why they have two zillion talking head segments and concentrate on the "pretty sports", as my wife calls them.  The "testosterone sports", such as wrestling, boxing, weightlifting, karate, etc. are relegated to the wee hours of the morning (with the possible exception of female competitors), while synchronized swimming, rhythmic gymnastics, equestrian events, etc. get primetime coverage.  For that matter, there was talk of cutting wrestling from the Games altogether.

Regarding pro opportunities, mat wrestling is very important in MMA, so folkstyle is better in that regard.

Even with the cuts, colleges still have ten weight classes.  Of course, so does freestyle 3/4ths of the time, but every fourth year wrestlers have to decide whether to go up or down in weight if their weight class isn't an Olympic weight.

How many freestyle matches were decide by who was put on the shot clock?  You may complain about folkstyle stalling calls being inconsistent, but they have nothing on shot clock calls.  Even if the ref splits two calls, with one to each wrestler, the guy who doesn't score during the second shot clock loses, since ties are decided by who scores last.  Of course, this is still an improvement over the ball grab, but that's not saying much.

The bottom line is that the whole argument is like a vegetarian and carnivore arguing about diet.  Each is convinced that their preference is better.

 

Except the fact that a carnivore diet is better. Lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s too drastic a change from folk to free. People will not want to abandon what has been “ours” for generations in favor of a “foreign” style.

The only way it happens is as evolution over a prolonged period. Push out rule would be a step that direction.

 

Personally, wrestling in PA, where mat wrestling plays such a huge part of folk style, it makes it hard for me to enjoy freestyle and it’s hyper-neutral focus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't see how changing scholastic to free is somehow going to lead to more "professional" opportunities.  I much prefer Folk regardless.  Switching styles would cost fans.  Those fans don't need to be reeducated or assimilated.  Most college fans have had some sort of exposure to freestyle despite the constant arguments that if we only understood it better we would appreciate it more. Props to the poster who made the connection to soccer fans!  It is totally the same kinda thing here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally agree with the posts above by D3UC157 and ironmonkey. They both make great points. Folkstyle wrestling evolved from catch-as-catch-can, which has been a part of the American sports culture for nearly 300 years. And from another standpoint, controlling a foe after he has been taken down is an essential part of being a martial art, which wrestling certainly is.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2020 at 6:36 AM, Tofurky said:

Why do most wrestling fans in the United States cling so tightly to our singular scholastic/collegiate style of wrestling? This style isn't wrestled anywhere else on earth, is strictly tied to educational institutions (if you want to compete in it, you have to be registered in school at any level), and has zero competitive option beyond college. Given that many of the board members here can see the obvious danger of what a shaky economic market due to a pandemic is foreshadowing for non-revenue collegiate sports, why are we as a sports community not looking for more suitable options for the longevity of wrestling in this country?

My question is...what scoring rules in Freestyle would you like to see implemented in Folk?  The reason I ask is because the NCAA Rules Committee is constantly adapting rules to make the sport better.  Sometimes those rules are very minor but sometimes they make a big difference.  "Hands to the face" penalty first offense lasted one year, and it was changed as too draconian.  Scoring and allowing pinning out of bounds has been a good rule change.   

There are some Freestyle rules I would like to see in Folkstyle but there are many rules I would not want.  I would like to see a reward for feet to back technique.  Think Mark Hall vs Michael Kemmerer first match.  Hall jacks up MK with double underhooks and throws MK to his back and MK comes out the back and scores TD so 2 MK and 0 MH.  Maybe this could have been 2-2 or 3-2?  The excitement of Hall taking the risk on the throw hurt him.  What's the lesson?  Don't take those kind of risks, or only in desperation.  The moment you add scoring for feet to back, you will see better technique being developed in wrestling rooms across the country (just watch the Russian Nationals highlight film).

However, there are many things about Free I would not like:  

*  3 Officials...ridiculous

*  Par Terre

*  Being under the umbrella of UWW rule changes.  Would you rather be under the protection of The Bill of Rights or under the whims of the UN?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, John Morgan said:

My question is...what scoring rules in Freestyle would you like to see implemented in Folk?  The reason I ask is because the NCAA Rules Committee is constantly adapting rules to make the sport better.  Sometimes those rules are very minor but sometimes they make a big difference.  "Hands to the face" penalty first offense lasted one year, and it was changed as too draconian.  Scoring and allowing pinning out of bounds has been a good rule change.   

There are some Freestyle rules I would like to see in Folkstyle but there are many rules I would not want.  I would like to see a reward for feet to back technique.  Think Mark Hall vs Michael Kemmerer first match.  Hall jacks up MK with double underhooks and throws MK to his back and MK comes out the back and scores TD so 2 MK and 0 MH.  Maybe this could have been 2-2 or 3-2?  The excitement of Hall taking the risk on the throw hurt him.  What's the lesson?  Don't take those kind of risks, or only in desperation.  The moment you add scoring for feet to back, you will see better technique being developed in wrestling rooms across the country (just watch the Russian Nationals highlight film).

However, there are many things about Free I would not like:  

*  3 Officials...ridiculous

*  Par Terre

*  Being under the umbrella of UWW rule changes.  Would you rather be under the protection of The Bill of Rights or under the whims of the UN?

The biggest improvement to Folkstyle would be a step out rule.  Even watching old FS matches on Youtube I am annoyed on how many great offensive moves  are countered by going out of bounds.  Not a big change to the spirit of Folkstyle, but I think would make the wrestling so much better.

3 officials - not a big deal either way to me. 

Par terre and exposure rules are obviously a no-go for hardcore Folkstyle guys

UWW changing the rules is a red herring.  The NCAA would still set the rules and would not have to follow UWW, just like NCAA does not line up exactly with international basketball rules (FIBA)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Jim L said:

The biggest improvement to Folkstyle would be a step out rule.  Even watching old FS matches on Youtube I am annoyed on how many great offensive moves  are countered by going out of bounds.  Not a big change to the spirit of Folkstyle, but I think would make the wrestling so much better.

3 officials - not a big deal either way to me. 

Par terre and exposure rules are obviously a no-go for hardcore Folkstyle guys

UWW changing the rules is a red herring.  The NCAA would still set the rules and would not have to follow UWW, just like NCAA does not line up exactly with international basketball rules (FIBA)

The problem with the pushout rule is that it encourages locking up and pushing in lieu of actual offense. Don't have a go to shot? Lock up and push. Don't laugh, I've seen it. Besides, I thought there was already a rule on passiviity? Guys already get dinged for retreating and not shooting (although not as much as they should, admittedly).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2020 at 7:15 PM, TobusRex said:

Thanks for the compliment on my posts, I feel the same about yours. I can't speak as to what other fans would do, but if they implemented that 15 second turn clock I'd walk away and not look back.  Also I never said I never wrestled FS, either. I DID wrestle FS on multiple occasions, once for an entire season (at age 26), and I had a FS record of 18-3, counting 2 forfeits. This isn't a case of somebody not liking something he wasn't good at, this is a case of a guy not liking something because the other way is better. Folk is a balanced form of wrestling, not just takedowns.  I like the fact that after I earn a takedown I'm given a chance to go to work on the other guy, see if I can get him on his shoulders. You FS guys seem to have forgotten that pinning the other guy is the classic method of winning a wrestling match, not beating him 1-0 on a stepout. 

Thank you, sir. I am happy we don't need to devolve to personal attacks to share opposing opinions on the matter. I look forward to more.

It's unfair to say that all Freestylers choose not to pin or even suggest that they pin less than U.S. scholastic/collegiate wrestlers. One thing to remember is the quality of the competition at the International level. It is really, really, really, really hard to turn, let alone pin world level guys, especially when they are flat and not turtling up. In another post, I gave some recent examples of U.S. wrestlers pinning  and being pinned in Freestyle against international opponents, so it absolutely does happen, maybe at the same rate as it does in college.

Freestyle and Greco, in my opinion, are indeed balanced forms of the sport. Not unlike U.S. scholastic/collegiate, at the NCAA tournament, what percentage of matches there have back points scored in them? NCAA fans have become snooze fests, by and large, because there are so few turns on top and guys ride parallel all the time. Again, the fact is that turning guys is incredibly difficult. The fact also is that watching two guys ride parallel for roughly 2/3 of a match has long been killing viewership. For the overwhelming majority of U.S. scholastic/collegiate wrestlers, wrestling on the feet is their bread and butter, not unlike Free and G.R.

Going back to the 2019 NCAA D1 finals, as a very recent example, four sets of near fall points were scored. The first was by Anthony Cassar as a takedown to turn against Oklahoma State. Anthony Ashnault put Micah Jordan on his back straight of a takedown. Jason Nolf against Tyler Berger, again, going takedown to turn. Mekhi Lewis cradled Vincenzo Joseph from top at the beginning of the second period for the only near fall points scored during the finals from a ride. That is 10% of matches having near fall scored from a ride. Not unlike Free or Greco, smart wrestlers are more adept at taking advantage of their opponents' bad positions right from the takedown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, John Morgan said:

My question is...what scoring rules in Freestyle would you like to see implemented in Folk?  The reason I ask is because the NCAA Rules Committee is constantly adapting rules to make the sport better.  Sometimes those rules are very minor but sometimes they make a big difference.  "Hands to the face" penalty first offense lasted one year, and it was changed as too draconian.  Scoring and allowing pinning out of bounds has been a good rule change.   

There are some Freestyle rules I would like to see in Folkstyle but there are many rules I would not want.  I would like to see a reward for feet to back technique.  Think Mark Hall vs Michael Kemmerer first match.  Hall jacks up MK with double underhooks and throws MK to his back and MK comes out the back and scores TD so 2 MK and 0 MH.  Maybe this could have been 2-2 or 3-2?  The excitement of Hall taking the risk on the throw hurt him.  What's the lesson?  Don't take those kind of risks, or only in desperation.  The moment you add scoring for feet to back, you will see better technique being developed in wrestling rooms across the country (just watch the Russian Nationals highlight film).

However, there are many things about Free I would not like:  

*  3 Officials...ridiculous

*  Par Terre

*  Being under the umbrella of UWW rule changes.  Would you rather be under the protection of The Bill of Rights or under the whims of the UN?

I'm with Jim L. on these statements.

The last comparison you made is far too nationalistic for my liking. If I remember correctly it was an interview with Sam Barber where he discussed NCAA rule changes protecting the "heritage" of U.S. scholastic/collegiate. The rules here have changed across time, too. Which are the best?

I believe that UWW has done some serious examination of what fans want to see and where the majority of points are scored in the international styles to improve their "products", keep wrestling in the Olympics and improve viewership. I cant think the same is being done with the NCAA, except for fireworks, music, and flashing lights to draw attention to ESPN.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2020 at 10:33 AM, GockeS said:

speaking of not understanding...  you seem not to

you dont have to hold anyone on their back. that is the meaning of control.

so he can't get off it.  and lol at 'the touch fall is gone'. and the idea of the 'slip' throw... speaking of not having control

by the way i did move on. 

i keep bolstering my point with facts, and you keep asking if i ever wrestled..as if this bolsters  your position somehow..

its just an insult and a cop out 

 

and as far as the contributin nothing... um, this thread is about why folk and not free

you just really dont understand much do you.

 

 

You haven't provided facts, GockeS. You've provided opinions, trying to pass them off as fact with no support at all. You've tried to put your words in my mouth and it hasn't worked. You want blind acceptance for your point of view, so you've turned your replies into personal attacks on me, which is how people who don't have a position argue.

Post into the wind from now on, my man. I won't be paying you any more attention.

Btw, I see you have been looking at my profile trying to figure out who I am.

Edited by Tofurky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2020 at 8:40 PM, HokieHWT said:

I think it comes down to lack of experience. Everyone that has ever wrestled started with folk style. Most, never tried FS and even less tried greco. Now think of all the coaches, from youth league to college who are, and some that aren’t, experienced enough in folk style to actually teach it. Now take that number and divide it by 99 and that’s how many of them are qualified to teach/coach FS/GR.

There just aren’t enough coaches to make a systematic change that eliminates folk style. Kids, today, aren’t going to listen to a coach who can’t talk about their personal successes.

I wholeheartedly agree with the first paragraph. It comes down to pride and admitting you don't know it all.

About 20 years ago, a man who is now a well known coach came back here, where he grew up, and started a wrestling school. High level kids were the first to go to him, outside of school. When other kids saw their growth, they went, too. Coaches in this area were FURIOUS! One of those coaches was one of my former high school coaches. By and large, it was all about pride for those guys and thinking they'd have to share some glory for the success of their wrestlers. It was absolutely ridiculous, but the in-state and national results were undeniable and that club coach was integral in helping with that.

The second paragraph I stronly disagree with. Two of the best, most successful coaches (one high school and one college) I've had the pleasure of being mentored by had very limited success as student-wrestlers, but immense success as wrestling coaches. Just this past weekend, Mark Perry talked about that very sentiment in a Trackwrestling video. He said people always ask him, "how can you coach Freestyle if you never wrestled [it]?" His reply? "I'm just a student of the game and I try to constantly get better [as a coach]."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

The problem with the pushout rule is that it encourages locking up and pushing in lieu of actual offense. Don't have a go to shot? Lock up and push. Don't laugh, I've seen it. Besides, I thought there was already a rule on passiviity? Guys already get dinged for retreating and not shooting (although not as much as they should, admittedly).

I think the problem here presumes that the aggressor in your example is simply walking guys off the mat. Even in that situation, if a guy takes five, six or seven steps backwards with no effort to wrestle and just eat up the clock, he should be penalized for it.

Along with that, a step out rule encourages more wrestling in the center of the mat and continuous flow to the match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2020 at 9:01 PM, D3UC157 said:

It’s too drastic a change from folk to free. People will not want to abandon what has been “ours” for generations in favor of a “foreign” style.

The only way it happens is as evolution over a prolonged period. Push out rule would be a step that direction.

 

Personally, wrestling in PA, where mat wrestling plays such a huge part of folk style, it makes it hard for me to enjoy freestyle and it’s hyper-neutral focus.

I agree with you and so have many, many other folks across time. It's gradual rule implementation, not the whole sale change of things in one fell swoop.

We live in a global society. Someone not embracing something because it's "foreign", not hearing other perspectives and ideas, is in jeopardy of quickly becoming a dinosaur and being left to the fringes. They're the folks about whom Bruce Springsteen wrote "Glory Days".

The Russians excel in par terre wrestling. Why? Not unlike PA wrestlers with mat wrestling, they spend a lot of time doing it. Want to improve in par terre? Study it and work on it. Want to turn guys more on top in U.S. scholastic/collegiate? Study it and work on it. I think a guy name Scott Moore (and his brother) was a good example of that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2020 at 9:22 PM, ironmonkey said:

I really don't see how changing scholastic to free is somehow going to lead to more "professional" opportunities.  I much prefer Folk regardless.  Switching styles would cost fans.  Those fans don't need to be reeducated or assimilated.  Most college fans have had some sort of exposure to freestyle despite the constant arguments that if we only understood it better we would appreciate it more. Props to the poster who made the connection to soccer fans!  It is totally the same kinda thing here. 

Again, it's gradual rule implementation, not a full change all at once.

The United States is (for now) the richest country in the world. There's not a ton of investment in the international styles of the sport because there are so few pathways to the top. Not unlike soccer, basketball, baseball, hockey, and football, all of which have the same rule structure from youth to professional, if wrestling had the same rule structures from youth to Olympics, we would see an immense amount of participation/depth at the senior levels, which would bring more investment to the sport from family, friends, and people and organizations who sell things to those groups. It's happening all around wrestling, but somehow wrestling says that the model feeding all of these other sports is wrong. What?

The Nittany Lion Wrestling Club is thriving with investors and paying athletes to train and compete with and for them. More men and women wrestling Freestyle and Greco brings in more money from supporters and investors and a need for more clubs. If more people are wrestling Free and G.R. from an early age, increasing depth and level of skill, those become professional options. Again, we see it in soccer, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc. Why should wrestling be any different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

I think the problem here presumes that the aggressor in your example is simply walking guys off the mat. Even in that situation, if a guy takes five, six or seven steps backwards with no effort to wrestle and just eat up the clock, he should be penalized for it.

Along with that, a step out rule encourages more wrestling in the center of the mat and continuous flow to the match.

I'm not against stricter rules against passivity in neutral. On the other hand I think the rules should recognize the fact that some guys just don't shoot. They lock up and push. In my opinion that's nothing more than stalling, but since they are pushing the other guy back only the guy getting pushed gets dinged. There has to be a common sense common ground. If the guy retreating is the only one taking shots he shouldn't get dinged. If the guy locks up, pushes, and never takes shots HE should get dinged, and the referees should be savvy enough to figure out what's going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tofurky said:

You haven't provided facts, GockeS. You've provided opinions, trying to pass them off as fact with no support at all. You've tried to put your words in my mouth and it hasn't worked. You want blind acceptance for your point of view, so you've turned your replies into personal attacks on me, which is how people who don't have a position argue.

Post into the wind from now on, my man. I won't be paying you any more attention.

Btw, I see you have been looking at my profile trying to figure out who I am.

lol...i looked at your profile to figure out what the picture was... i had never heard of tofurky jerky

lol...pass opinion off as fact..

is that why you keep asking if i have ever wrestled? 

yeah, run along lil one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TobusRex said:

The problem with the pushout rule is that it encourages locking up and pushing in lieu of actual offense. Don't have a go to shot? Lock up and push. Don't laugh, I've seen it. Besides, I thought there was already a rule on passiviity? Guys already get dinged for retreating and not shooting (although not as much as they should, admittedly).

I have not seen this in Freestyle.  Admittedly, I only watch high level matches  on the internet.  The step out takes away the slowly work your way of out bounds defense to a good shot strategy.  Also force guys who don't want to give up a "cheap" push-out point to wrestle in the middle of the mat, resulting so much more action in scoring.

In the purest sense of wrestling being a combat sport it also makes sense.  How many fights get reset to neutral when one guy has a huge advantage becasue a combatant has step past an arbitrary line?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2020 at 5:23 PM, Tofurky said:

Reread what I said. I'm talking about a real future for wrestling opportunities for many more athletes than we have now.

The Olympic styles are not something to be afraid of. It's okay if you're not well versed in them. There's always opportunity to change that.

No one said "throw away" U.S. scholastic/collegiate. However, it has been experiencing lean years in the last decade and the current financial crisis is only going to make things worse.

Are you a rugby fan?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2020 at 9:36 PM, silverback said:

I think we should change Freestyle to Folkstyle.  Freestyle has poor attendance, seems like few care to watch it.  

 

The 4,000 fans who go to "Russian Nationals" are proof of this.

How is freestyle a good option again when wrestling is one of the top sports in Russia?

Or are we going to blame their weak GDP on lack of big arenas and attendance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I'm not against stricter rules against passivity in neutral. On the other hand I think the rules should recognize the fact that some guys just don't shoot. They lock up and push. In my opinion that's nothing more than stalling, but since they are pushing the other guy back only the guy getting pushed gets dinged. There has to be a common sense common ground. If the guy retreating is the only one taking shots he shouldn't get dinged. If the guy locks up, pushes, and never takes shots HE should get dinged, and the referees should be savvy enough to figure out what's going on.

But the idea is to remove subjectivity from the referee. You can't have one set of rules for guys who shoot and one for guys who prefer to pummel, duck, body lock, etc.

Also, it's pretty rare to find a Freestyler who doesn't shoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...