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Tofurky

Why Folk/Collegiate/Scholastic Style for The U.S.?

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Just now, TobusRex said:

True, but we're talking about applying it's rules to folk.

Fair, so how do you set two sets of rules for one competition? It can't be the same as baseball with the designated hitter rule.

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14 hours ago, Tofurky said:

Fair, so how do you set two sets of rules for one competition? It can't be the same as baseball with the designated hitter rule.

I think it just takes drilling a little common sense into the referees. All of them wrestled at one time or another, they understand how guys stall by locking up and pushing and how guys stall by retreating.  Refs should watch, see who is taking shots (REAL shots) or making throw attempts. If a kid retreats and shoots on a continual basis, then he shouldn't get dinged for passivity, if he retreats and only takes an occasional half shot or no shots, then he should get dinged for retreat. If a kid is locking up trying for a body lock or some other position and actively working, let him. If he's just locking up and pushing with no shot attempts then HE should be dinged.

I realize the problem is that makes stalling "subjective", and people dislike "judgement calls". But black/white solutions don't always fit, as our back and forth has shown. Sometimes a compromise is the best solution.

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19 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I think it just takes drilling a little common sense into the referees. All of them wrestled at one time or another, they understand how guys stall by locking up and pushing and how guys stall by retreating.  Refs should watch, see who is taking shots (REAL shots) or making throw attempts. If a kid retreats and shoots on a continual basis, then he shouldn't get dinged for passivity, if he retreats and only takes an occasional half shot or no shots, then he should get dinged for retreat. If a kid is locking up trying for a body lock or some other position and actively working, let him. If he's just locking up and pushing with no shot attempts then HE should be dinged.

I realize the problem is that makes stalling "subjective", and people dislike "judgement calls". But black/white solutions don't always fit, as our back and forth has shown. Sometimes a compromise is the best solution.

Not all refs have wrestled.

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i didn't wrestle... i have reffed USAW events local and regional...

and the one thing this forum has proven over and over again (this thread is no exception)... just because you "wrestled" does not mean you understand what you did, what you watch, comprehend the rule set, or qualify you as a critical thinker in any regards at all...

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

bull****

This your first year following the sport?  Or sport in general?

Go to any officials meeting or ask a state representative.  There are numerous officials at every level, in every sport, that never participated in said sport / level.

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2 hours ago, Mokoma said:

This your first year following the sport?  Or sport in general?

Go to any officials meeting or ask a state representative.  There are numerous officials at every level, in every sport, that never participated in said sport / level.

I've never met a referee who didn't wrestle.

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

I've never met a referee who didn't wrestle.

My high school coach never wrestled.  He was told that the team needed a coach and he was it.  That first year was terrible (he literally pulled film strips from the library to demonstrate moves), but he learned quickly.  We won the conference and district the next year and finished third at state the following year (we might have won it if the majority of the team didn't have the flu).  He did get a title three years later.  I'm sure he could have been a good referee if he chose to, but he probably burned a few too many bridges to want to do that.

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21 hours ago, TobusRex said:

True, but we're talking about applying it's rules to folk.

It's pretty common for heavyweights at the high school level.  How many times have you seen a 285 pound heavy lock up and drive a 230 pound heavy out of pounds, and then the ref hits the smaller guy for stalling?

 

The worst example I ever saw was in the state finals five or ten years ago.  One kid was a returning (two time?) state champion at 220 pounds, who couldn't quite make weight anymore.  His opponent barely made the 285 limit.  The lighter wrestler kept shooting and scored takedowns about half the time (and got pancaked once).  The bigger guy did nothing but lock up and drive the lighter guy out of bounds, but was awarded with multiple stall points.  The big guy won after a takedown at the buzzer was waved off.

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I reffed International styles for several years and never wrestled. I was the head USWF ref in NJ and did final bouts at Junior Nats (now Fargo) and at Senior Nats. I did the USA/USSR match at Lehigh in 84. 

Bill Stecklein never wrestled. He did the Olympics and got the best in the world award (I don't know what it's called).

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

I reffed International styles for several years and never wrestled. I was the head USWF ref in NJ and did final bouts at Junior Nats (now Fargo) and at Senior Nats. I did the USA/USSR match at Lehigh in 84. 

Bill Stecklein never wrestled. He did the Olympics and got the best in the world award (I don't know what it's called).

I'm stunned there are guys refereeing wrestling that never wrestled. What did you do, go take classes or something?

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1 hour ago, Bob1974 said:

It's pretty common for heavyweights at the high school level.  How many times have you seen a 285 pound heavy lock up and drive a 230 pound heavy out of pounds, and then the ref hits the smaller guy for stalling?

 

The worst example I ever saw was in the state finals five or ten years ago.  One kid was a returning (two time?) state champion at 220 pounds, who couldn't quite make weight anymore.  His opponent barely made the 285 limit.  The lighter wrestler kept shooting and scored takedowns about half the time (and got pancaked once).  The bigger guy did nothing but lock up and drive the lighter guy out of bounds, but was awarded with multiple stall points.  The big guy won after a takedown at the buzzer was waved off.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, guys just pushing and offering no real offense. Yeah, seen that kind of thing many times. Happened to me at the State tournament in 1983 in the semifinals. I ended up losing 3-1 and the other guy didn't take a single shot the entire match. I took maybe 5 or 6 shots (real shots, not half shots) and was dinged for 2 stalling points none the less.

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1 hour ago, Bob1974 said:

My high school coach never wrestled.  He was told that the team needed a coach and he was it.  That first year was terrible (he literally pulled film strips from the library to demonstrate moves), but he learned quickly.  We won the conference and district the next year and finished third at state the following year (we might have won it if the majority of the team didn't have the flu).  He did get a title three years later.  I'm sure he could have been a good referee if he chose to, but he probably burned a few too many bridges to want to do that.

My JR High coach was 2nd team on his HS team behind a 2 time state champ. He was hired away to a small HS near Tulsa, class A, and won a few state team titles.

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20 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I'm stunned there are guys refereeing wrestling that never wrestled. What did you do, go take classes or something?

I'm stunned that you think you can't watch wrestling long enough and learn the ropes.

I know the positions on the mat to take and have watched enough to have a sense of where to go. Obviously, the wrestlers know more technique than I do and since they do them trying to outwit the other guy most refs can sometimes be outwitted and still be in position to see and react. You mostly only have to understand what happened as or after it happens, generally not before. It helps but you can be a few feet off a perfect view and still get it right.

This isn't rocket science.

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20 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I'm stunned that you think you can't watch wrestling long enough and learn the ropes.

I know the positions on the mat to take and have watched enough to have a sense of where to go. Obviously, the wrestlers know more technique than I do and since they do them trying to outwit the other guy most refs can sometimes be outwitted and still be in position to see and react. You mostly only have to understand what happened as or after it happens, generally not before. It helps but you can be a few feet off a perfect view and still get it right.

This isn't rocket science.

And maybe having refs who never wrestled but are capable, would eliminate the “subjectivity” everyone talks about?  I don’t know

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3 minutes ago, Schuteandscore said:

And maybe having refs who never wrestled but are capable, would eliminate the “subjectivity” everyone talks about?  I don’t know

the only way to eliminate subjectivity is have better/more consistent rules...

but, this is folk we are talking about here...

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11 minutes ago, LJB said:

the only way to eliminate subjectivity is have better/more consistent rules...

but, this is folk we are talking about here...

Hey no, I also agree and think better more consistent rules would help, and for the record, I wrestled through college, officiated, and have been in coaching for 15 years and was in the idea at first that of course wrestlers make the best refs, but after thinking about it, we want the best refs period, and the best aren’t always wrestlers.  I was just thinking about the other side.

 I also think that we have to improve and cannot be close minded about changes to the style.   I don’t think we need to change folk style to freestyle, but that doesn’t mean that there are not simple rule changes that would be beneficial to folk style, that are part of freestyle.  I think there are a few...

Edited by Schuteandscore

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2 hours ago, Bob1974 said:

It's pretty common for heavyweights at the high school level.  How many times have you seen a 285 pound heavy lock up and drive a 230 pound heavy out of pounds, and then the ref hits the smaller guy for stalling?

 

The worst example I ever saw was in the state finals five or ten years ago.  One kid was a returning (two time?) state champion at 220 pounds, who couldn't quite make weight anymore.  His opponent barely made the 285 limit.  The lighter wrestler kept shooting and scored takedowns about half the time (and got pancaked once).  The bigger guy did nothing but lock up and drive the lighter guy out of bounds, but was awarded with multiple stall points.  The big guy won after a takedown at the buzzer was waved off.

i agree, and that 'little' guy would be penalized EACH time he was backed off the mat in freestyle

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55 minutes ago, LJB said:

if you can't generate your own offense off of a guy who is just "pushing", can you really call yourself a wrestler?

you will notice he did mention the little guy got takedowns half the time... 

 

so you might be as guilty as the rest of us? 

7 hours ago, LJB said:

i didn't wrestle... i have reffed USAW events local and regional...

and the one thing this forum has proven over and over again (this thread is no exception)... just because you "wrestled" does not mean you understand what you did, what you watch, comprehend the rule set, or qualify you as a critical thinker in any regards at all...

 

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31 minutes ago, GockeS said:

you will notice he did mention the little guy got takedowns half the time... 

 

so you might be as guilty as the rest of us? 

 

Wow...so he was saying guys who couldn't get a takedown against guys who lock up and push aren't wrestlers, but never wrestled himself?

LOLOLOL!!

Edited by TobusRex

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