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Tofurky

Why Folk/Collegiate/Scholastic Style for The U.S.?

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Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on referees being ex-wrestlers. It explains some of the horrible calls/non-calls over the years at wrestling events. I'm not saying a non-wrestler can't be a good referee, like gimpelf says "it's not rocket science", but I can't help but think a savvy, experienced wrestler could take advantage of a novice referee, especially if he never wrestled. On the other hand I knew referees who were absolutely awful who had wrestling experience. Hell, I thought they all did until this thread.

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Just now, TobusRex said:

Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on referees being ex-wrestlers. It explains some of the horrible calls/non-calls over the years at wrestling events. I'm not saying a non-wrestler can't be a good referee, like gimpelf says "it's not rocket science", but I can't help but think a savvy, experienced wrestler could take advantage of a novice referee, especially if he never wrestled. On the other hand I knew referees who were absolutely awful who had wrestling experience. Hell, I thought they all did until this thread.

Those bad calls were definitely all by prior wrestlers.

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11 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Wow...so he was saying guys who couldn't get a takedown against a guy who locks up and pushes isn't a wrestler, but never wrestled himself?

LOLOLOL!!

again, if you can not counter someone who all they do is just "push", then how can you call yourself a wrestler?

seems like a pretty simple question to answer... 

and let's be honest, perhaps i have just benefited from being around real coaches and real athletes for the majority of my time being around this sport... most are not so lucky as evidenced by so much poor wrestling i have had to watch over the years... and there is no doubt that if you can't find away to create your own offense off of someone who all they are doing is simply "pushing", then you must fall squarely in the pile that is poor wrestling...

 

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11 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Waiting on the empirical evidence that you'll provide to backup your assessment......

That was a joke, you’d have to do the research yourself.  I clearly have no idea what horrible calls you’re speaking of or who the referee was.

Bet they wrestled though.

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7 minutes ago, LJB said:

again, if you can not counter someone who all they do is just "push", then how can you call yourself a wrestler?

seems like a pretty simple question to answer... 

and let's be honest, perhaps i have just benefited from being around real coaches and real athletes for the majority of my time being around this sport... most are not so lucky as evidenced by so much poor wrestling i have had to watch over the years... and there is no doubt that if you can't find away to create your own offense off of someone who all they are doing is simply "pushing", then you must fall squarely in the pile that is poor wrestling...

 

Honestly, if you’re good, you want a guy who all they do is push.  Makes like 90% of neutral offense much easier.

And since TobusRex claims he can beat Zain at 55 years old, he should have crushed a “pusher only” in high school.

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1 minute ago, Mokoma said:

Honestly, if you’re good, you want a guy who all they do is push.  Makes like 90% of neutral offense much easier.

And since TobusRex claims he can beat Zain at 55 years old, he should have crushed a “pusher only” in high school.

exactly... so much easier to create offense from someone pushing into you than when they just run backwards and refuse to engage...

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Last I checked, refereeing is rules implementation. If you can read the rule book, comprehend what you've read, then demonstrate comprehension of said rules through implementation, why would you need to have participated in any sport to be a judge of it?

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6 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

Last I checked, refereeing is rules implementation. If you can read the rule book, comprehend what you've read, then demonstrate comprehension of said rules through implementation, why would you need to have participated in any sport to be a judge of it?

to be fair, the main opposition comes from someone who could not figure out how to counter getting "pushed" straight backwards...

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8 minutes ago, Tofurky said:

Last I checked, refereeing is rules implementation. If you can read the rule book, comprehend what you've read, then demonstrate comprehension of said rules through implementation, why would you need to have participated in any sport to be a judge of it?

In this case (wrestling), I agree. It might be more complicated in quality judgment types of sports like gymnastics or figure skating.

In wrestling, I don't need to know if he did the move well technically to score it. But I do in the sports I mentioned. It's still possible to learn on your own though.

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4 hours ago, LJB said:

again, if you can not counter someone who all they do is just "push", then how can you call yourself a wrestler?

seems like a pretty simple question to answer... 

and let's be honest, perhaps i have just benefited from being around real coaches and real athletes for the majority of my time being around this sport... most are not so lucky as evidenced by so much poor wrestling i have had to watch over the years... and there is no doubt that if you can't find away to create your own offense off of someone who all they are doing is simply "pushing", then you must fall squarely in the pile that is poor wrestling...

 

Considering that the lighter weight guy in my example was nationally ranked and the heavier guy was undefeated, I'd say your assessment of wrestling ability is a tad off.  It's not difficult to drive someone out of bounds once you push hard enough to force the first step back, especially if you have a 50 pound weight advantage.

While it is most common with the heavies, I've also seen it with lighter wrestlers.  There was a three time state champion about 30 years ago at 160 pounds who was so jacked his senior year that he just forced double underhooks and drove his opponents backwards.  He would either drive them out of bounds or push so hard and fast that tripped and got stuck.  The funny thing is that he knew a lot of technique (he won his first title as a sophomore using a spladle to pin his opponents), but was so damn strong as a senior that he didn't bother to use it.

Hell, I even did it once myself.  I friend had talked me into going to a local open tournament as my last hurrah before entering the working world the next week.  I was out of shape, but figured there wouldn't be much competition.  That was true until the final, where my opponent was a two-time state finalist who had a year of college wrestling under his belt.  I was up 1-0 late in the third when he stood up, turned and faced me.  I had him in a bearhug and figured I would drive him to his back, but my arms were like wet noodles and I had nothing left, so I drove him out of bounds.  I should have received a stalling warning, but in this small tournament they just started us over and I rode him out for the win.

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8 minutes ago, Bob1974 said:

Considering that the lighter weight guy in my example was nationally ranked and the heavier guy was undefeated, I'd say your assessment of wrestling ability is a tad off.  It's not difficult to drive someone out of bounds once you push hard enough to force the first step back, especially if you have a 50 pound weight advantage.

While it is most common with the heavies, I've also seen it with lighter wrestlers.  There was a three time state champion about 30 years ago at 160 pounds who was so jacked his senior year that he just forced double underhooks and drove his opponents backwards.  He would either drive them out of bounds or push so hard and fast that tripped and got stuck.  The funny thing is that he knew a lot of technique (he won his first title as a sophomore using a spladle to pin his opponents), but was so damn strong as a senior that he didn't bother to use it.

Hell, I even did it once myself.  I friend had talked me into going to a local open tournament as my last hurrah before entering the working world the next week.  I was out of shape, but figured there wouldn't be much competition.  That was true until the final, where my opponent was a two-time state finalist who had a year of college wrestling under his belt.  I was up 1-0 late in the third when he stood up, turned and faced me.  I had him in a bearhug and figured I would drive him to his back, but my arms were like wet noodles and I had nothing left, so I drove him out of bounds.  I should have received a stalling warning, but in this small tournament they just started us over and I rode him out for the win.

Hey, unathletic fat kids can probably be “pushed” around by anyone stronger than them...

if that is what you are going to hang your hat on then so be it...

as far as this so many time state finalist in some unnamed state 30 years ago... 

come on...

anyone can we point to a big fish in a little pond that overachieved on an unchallenged “state” level...

if you get pushed straight back by someone and can’t figure a way to counter, you were not a real wrestler...

That is the long and the short of it...

All any of you have to do is show me any accomplished wrestler who got pushed straight back and could not figure a way out of that incredible game plan...

should be easy enough, right?

 

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13 hours ago, LJB said:

again, if you can not counter someone who all they do is just "push", then how can you call yourself a wrestler?

seems like a pretty simple question to answer... 

and let's be honest, perhaps i have just benefited from being around real coaches and real athletes for the majority of my time being around this sport... most are not so lucky as evidenced by so much poor wrestling i have had to watch over the years... and there is no doubt that if you can't find away to create your own offense off of someone who all they are doing is simply "pushing", then you must fall squarely in the pile that is poor wrestling...

 

Just because you've been around "real coaches and real athletes" doesn't make you a subject matter expert on wrestling.  Ever heard of John DuPont? I've "been around" great guitar players and "real musicians" many times, but I challenge you to sit and listen to me play guitar without first stuffing cotton in your ears.

 I don't know how old you are, but if you aren't 50+ you might not remember when the Iowa Hawkeyes in particular were FAMOUS for locking up and pushing (for the easy stall points). Also,  I'd suggest not making any sweeping statements about wrestling ability since you have none.

Edited by TobusRex

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12 hours ago, Tofurky said:

Last I checked, refereeing is rules implementation. If you can read the rule book, comprehend what you've read, then demonstrate comprehension of said rules through implementation, why would you need to have participated in any sport to be a judge of it?

I know straight off top of my head at least two world championship officials from the United States who never wrestled a match in their life.  One of whom was a quite successful head coach, and sit enshrined in the national wrestling hall of fame.

Edited by Lurker

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

Just because you've been around "real coaches and real athletes" doesn't make you a subject matter expert on wrestling.  Ever heard of John DuPont? I've "been around" great guitar players and "real musicians" many times, but I challenge you to sit and listen to me play guitar without first stuffing cotton in your ears.

 I don't know how old you are, but if you aren't 50+ you might not remember when the Iowa Hawkeyes in particular were FAMOUS for locking up and pushing (for the easy stall points). Also,  I'd suggest not making any sweeping statements about wrestling ability since you have none.

getting pushed straight back by a nobody in 1983 and not being able to find a way to stand your ground and wrestle through it does not speak to any wrestling ability either...

but, at least you didn't let that one experience taint your view for the last 4 decades and you grew from it and learned somehting...

 

oh...

 

wait...

 

never mind...

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What do you consider to be "real wrestlers"?  From your comments, it appears that nationally ranked, state champion and undefeated high school wrestlers don't meet your stringent criteria, so what does?  Someone on the Olympic ladder?  If so, that runs counter to the topic of collegiate/scholastic styles.

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On 4/23/2020 at 2:51 PM, LJB said:

getting pushed straight back by a nobody in 1983 and not being able to find a way to stand your ground and wrestle through it does not speak to any wrestling ability either...

but, at least you didn't let that one experience taint your view for the last 4 decades and you grew from it and learned somehting...

 

oh...

 

wait...

 

never mind...

LOL...the non-wrestler who knows more about wrestling than people who wrestled. I'll be sure to tell the 3 time State Runnerup who beat me that he was a "nobody", at least by the standards of somebody who never had the balls to actually wrestle a match.

When you spend a few hundred hours drilling on the mat come back and chat. Perhaps we can arrange a personal meeting where you can show me your skill set on the mat?? I'm sure you'll show me all the shortcomings in my technique that you "absorbed" from watching wrestling matches.

Edited by TobusRex

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On 4/23/2020 at 7:19 PM, Bob1974 said:

What do you consider to be "real wrestlers"?  From your comments, it appears that nationally ranked, state champion and undefeated high school wrestlers don't meet your stringent criteria, so what does?  Someone on the Olympic ladder?  If so, that runs counter to the topic of collegiate/scholastic styles.

Apparently people with "no wrestling experience whatsoever" are the subject matter experts on wrestling around here, judging by LJbs commentary.

Edited by TobusRex

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On 4/23/2020 at 4:30 AM, LJB said:

Hey, unathletic fat kids can probably be “pushed” around by anyone stronger than them...

if that is what you are going to hang your hat on then so be it...

as far as this so many time state finalist in some unnamed state 30 years ago... 

come on...

anyone can we point to a big fish in a little pond that overachieved on an unchallenged “state” level...

if you get pushed straight back by someone and can’t figure a way to counter, you were not a real wrestler...

That is the long and the short of it...

All any of you have to do is show me any accomplished wrestler who got pushed straight back and could not figure a way out of that incredible game plan...

should be easy enough, right?

 

You may know the rules, but you clearly don't know **** about wrestling.

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On 4/24/2020 at 3:27 PM, TobusRex said:

You may know the rules, but you clearly don't know **** about wrestling.

hey, if i was you i would probably feel the exact same way...

it is the only way the 10 piece puzzle fits and makes sense within your world...

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