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Fletcher

'11 Burroughs v '13 Dake - analysis without the drama

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Dake and Burroughs talked a little about this hypothetical match, but got sidetracked and didn't get into as much analysis as I hoped. I'm hoping some of our board members with better memories than me can answer some questions so we can take a better guess at how this match would shake out.

Dake on top - did anyone ride JB in the 2010-2011 season - either long enough to get riding time or for an entire period? If so, who and how does he compare to Dake? Who got away from Dake on bottom in 2012-2013 and how did his bottom skills compare to JB? Any chance Dake turns JB? Did anyone turn JB in 2010-2011?

Dake on bottom - I have no doubt he gets away from JB before riding time accrues, but is there anything to Dake's claim that he would get a reversal? How many reversals did Dake get in 2012-2013? How many reversals did JB give up in 2010-2011?

Neutral - I don't follow freestyle, but I assume their neutral wrestling in free is the best proxy for how they would do against each other in folk - fair assumption? I also assume JB wins this position because a past-his-prime JB beat Dake in free so a 2013 JB is even better - also a fair assumption?

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Burroughs wins this.  Burroughs was world champ in 2011 and had a tough road to get there by beating the reigning champion. Dake wasn't able to beat the reigning champion, otherwise known as Jordan Burroughs.   Burroughs would have taken him down at least twice.  Unless Dake chose top, Burroughs wouldn't even have had to wrestle on the mat.

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I doubt Dake gets riding time much less turns Burroughs and this only happens if Dake takes top.  A reversal is highly unlikely as Burroughs would cut before Dake even has a chance.  It comes down to the TD game and 2011 Burroughs was just too slick. 

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21 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Burroughs wins this.  Burroughs was world champ in 2011 and had a tough road to get there by beating the reigning champion. Dake wasn't able to beat the reigning champion, otherwise known as Jordan Burroughs.   Burroughs would have taken him down at least twice.  Unless Dake chose top, Burroughs wouldn't even have had to wrestle on the mat.

I don’t think world champ is all that relevant when talking about a folk style match up.  Kyle Snyder was 2 or 3 time reigning world champ when he lost to non NCAA champ Adam Coon.  I think Dake has at least a great chance here.  Not sure who I’d pick tho.

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23 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Burroughs wins this.  Burroughs was world champ in 2011 and had a tough road to get there by beating the reigning champion. Dake wasn't able to beat the reigning champion, otherwise known as Jordan Burroughs.   Burroughs would have taken him down at least twice.  Unless Dake chose top, Burroughs wouldn't even have had to wrestle on the mat.

Folkstyle, neutral defense is CONSIDERABLY different than Free.  Just ask Askren.  Dake's defense wasn't nearly as funky as Askren's but he still was able to use the full range of motion, allowing exposure without penalty.  There is a reason Dake was only taken down 2x's in his last 3 seasons, with one of those being to World Champ Taylor out of 3 matches.

Could Burroughs beat him?  Absolutely.  But, using Freestyle metrics is folly.  Dake's defense was the best of the best in Folk in 2013.  If it took Taylor 3 matches to get a takedown, it is pretty damn likely that he can stop Burroughs from getting 1 in a single match.  It is even moreso, that he can stop Burroughs from the 2 or more he would probably need to win.

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9 minutes ago, spladle said:

I doubt Dake gets riding time much less turns Burroughs and this only happens if Dake takes top.  A reversal is highly unlikely as Burroughs would cut before Dake even has a chance.  It comes down to the TD game and 2011 Burroughs was just too slick. 

All of this is premised on Dake not being able to get a takedown of his own.  He was pretty good at that as well.  He just never played the take them down, let them up game.

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Just now, MSU158 said:

Folkstyle, neutral defense is CONSIDERABLY different than Free.  Just ask Askren.  Dake's defense wasn't nearly as funky as Askren's but he still was able to use the full range of motion, allowing exposure without penalty.  There is a reason Dake was only taken down 2x's in his last 3 seasons, with one of those being to World Champ Taylor out of 3 matches.

Could Burroughs beat him?  Absolutely.  But, using Freestyle metrics is folly.  Dake's defense was the best of the best in Folk in 2013.  If it took Taylor 3 matches to get a takedown, it is pretty damn likely that he can stop Burroughs from getting 1 in a single match.  It is even moreso, that he can stop Burroughs from the 2 or more he would probably need to win.

Burroughs was finishing with authority in 2011. Lets not go down Unicorn Lane.  Burroughs and Dake equally own him.   Burroughs also owns Dake.  He has beaten the guy so many different ways, the folly is thinking he wouldn't do the same thing in a different style.

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1 hour ago, Fletcher said:

Dake and Burroughs talked a little about this hypothetical match, but got sidetracked and didn't get into as much analysis as I hoped. I'm hoping some of our board members with better memories than me can answer some questions so we can take a better guess at how this match would shake out.

Dake on top - did anyone ride JB in the 2010-2011 season - either long enough to get riding time or for an entire period? If so, who and how does he compare to Dake? Who got away from Dake on bottom in 2012-2013 and how did his bottom skills compare to JB? Any chance Dake turns JB? Did anyone turn JB in 2010-2011?

Dake on bottom - I have no doubt he gets away from JB before riding time accrues, but is there anything to Dake's claim that he would get a reversal? How many reversals did Dake get in 2012-2013? How many reversals did JB give up in 2010-2011?

Neutral - I don't follow freestyle, but I assume their neutral wrestling in free is the best proxy for how they would do against each other in folk - fair assumption? I also assume JB wins this position because a past-his-prime JB beat Dake in free so a 2013 JB is even better - also a fair assumption?

No turns from Dake, but he could ride Burroughs...if he gets on top.  Burroughs just said yesterday he would cut Dake, so it's a non-issue.  If he did try to ride Dake, Dake could definitely reverse Burroughs.  Dake reversed Taylor once, and nearly did it in the NCAA finals but they went OOB.  In neutral, Burroughs offense is better, but Dake is no slouch, and Dake's defense in Folkstyle was one of the best off all time., and Folk allows you to do more stuff defensively since you can expose your back if necessary.  Burroughs would need to get two TDs to zero in regulation to win (I messed this math up yesterday, thanks @Gantry). 

If forced to pick, I'd take Dake, but obviously a match Burroughs could win.

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5 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Burroughs was finishing with authority in 2011. Lets not go down Unicorn Lane.  Burroughs and Dake equally own him.   Burroughs also owns Dake.  He has beaten the guy so many different ways, the folly is thinking he wouldn't do the same thing in a different style.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  Dake was WAY better in folkstyle(than he was in Free).  I just don't understand how anyone can't see that.  JB was considerably more 1 dimensional in folk.  This is much like Snyder in Folk.  Yes, their takedown offense was otherworldly, but Folk opened up avenues for guys to keep it close and defend takedowns in ways that they simply can't in Free.

Dake was really good against double legs on his butt in Folk.  In Free, he would be forced to turn and concede or give up exposure.  I simply do NOT think JB finishes on Dake cleanly or quickly.  Even if he does, he will have to do it more than once, while never being countered for a takedown or simply giving one up to Dake on his own offense.

Folk is just that different of an animal when comparing the 2.  Dake was fully 3 dimensional and his defense was really THAT good!

Edited by MSU158

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2011 JB:

  • Hodge Winner. 20-0 in freestyle. World Champ.

2013 Dake:

  • Hodge Winner. 3-2 in freestyle. Fifth at the Golden Grand Prix.

Conclusion: JB all day.

Edited by Katie

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

I don’t think world champ is all that relevant when talking about a folk style match up.  Kyle Snyder was 2 or 3 time reigning world champ when he lost to non NCAA champ Adam Coon.  I think Dake has at least a great chance here.  Not sure who I’d pick tho.

Heavyweight is a little different.  Snyder gave up a lot of weight to coon.

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

dake could very easily just back straight out of bounds to avoid being taken down...

this is folk we are talking about...

duh...

Well, technically that would be stalling.   But that does bring up a good point, would this match be based on current rules or based on 2011/2013 rules?

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Burroughs wins because Dake cant win a fantasy match.

Burroughs was better suited for freestyle, where as imo Dake was better suited for folkstyle.

Idk who wins but I would have loved to see that match, but I'll take Burroughs, just because he did beat Howe, whose defense (though different then Dakes), was really damn good but wasnt enough. 

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17 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Well, technically that would be stalling.   But that does bring up a good point, would this match be based on current rules or based on 2011/2013 rules?

you are exactly right... JB would get hit with multiple stall calls in folk for pushing Dake out of bounds... Dake might get a major at this rate...

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Folkstyle, neutral defense is CONSIDERABLY different than Free.  Just ask Askren.  Dake's defense wasn't nearly as funky as Askren's but he still was able to use the full range of motion, allowing exposure without penalty.  There is a reason Dake was only taken down 2x's in his last 3 seasons, with one of those being to World Champ Taylor out of 3 matches.

Could Burroughs beat him?  Absolutely.  But, using Freestyle metrics is folly.  Dake's defense was the best of the best in Folk in 2013.  If it took Taylor 3 matches to get a takedown, it is pretty damn likely that he can stop Burroughs from getting 1 in a single match.  It is even moreso, that he can stop Burroughs from the 2 or more he would probably need to win.

Taylor getting stifled isn't that groundbreaking - j'den cox stifled taylor, dake continued to do so in freestyle. It just boggles my mind why this is no different than taylor vs dake - why did people continue to pick taylor and why do people continue to pick dake against burroughs  ? The record is not close.

dakes defense is so good against burroughs that when he has had a chance to beat him with lead in third period burroughs scored when he needed to.  

dake and taylor are perceived so much better in college because they came in better freshman year. Burroughs career isn't seen in the same light since he was a late bloomer but senior year burroughs was so good he left college and instantly won worlds - how did dake and taylor do right out of college ? 

dake is being a real fake tough guy as of late - so confident he can beat burroughs he decided to go up weight class in an olympic year to duck burroughs because he knew he couldn't beat him.

Taylor will never beat dake and dake is never beating burroughs in any matchup - dakes mental toughness edge against his competition is like the mental edge burroughs has on dake. Only question will be what will dake's excuse be this time ? 

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7 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Taylor getting stifled isn't that groundbreaking - j'den cox stifled taylor, dake continued to do so in freestyle. It just boggles my mind why this is no different than taylor vs dake - why did people continue to pick taylor and why do people continue to pick dake against burroughs  ? The record is not close.

dakes defense is so good against burroughs that when he has had a chance to beat him with lead in third period burroughs scored when he needed to.  

dake and taylor are perceived so much better in college because they came in better freshman year. Burroughs career isn't seen in the same light since he was a late bloomer but senior year burroughs was so good he left college and instantly won worlds - how did dake and taylor do right out of college ? 

dake is being a real fake tough guy as of late - so confident he can beat burroughs he decided to go up weight class in an olympic year to duck burroughs because he knew he couldn't beat him.

Taylor will never beat dake and dake is never beating burroughs in any matchup - dakes mental toughness edge against his competition is like the mental edge burroughs has on dake. Only question will be what will dake's excuse be this time ? 

Dake has already beaten Burroughs, and there is no third period in Freestyle matches what are you talking about?

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Folkstyle, neutral defense is CONSIDERABLY different than Free.  Just ask Askren.  Dake's defense wasn't nearly as funky as Askren's but he still was able to use the full range of motion, allowing exposure without penalty.  There is a reason Dake was only taken down 2x's in his last 3 seasons, with one of those being to World Champ Taylor out of 3 matches.

Could Burroughs beat him?  Absolutely.  But, using Freestyle metrics is folly.  Dake's defense was the best of the best in Folk in 2013.  If it took Taylor 3 matches to get a takedown, it is pretty damn likely that he can stop Burroughs from getting 1 in a single match.  It is even moreso, that he can stop Burroughs from the 2 or more he would probably need to win.

Just stop. Taylor was not a world champ at that point. Years away, you know this. And if freestyle results don't count in JB's favor then they absolutely do not for any of Dake's opponents. 

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20 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Dake has already beaten Burroughs, and there is no third period in Freestyle matches what are you talking about?

A single win in a best of 3 series isn't exactly indicative of superiority. Not putting words in your mouth, just putting that out there.

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Dakes plan has been exactly that in freestyle, play defense and grind out a win against jb. That style doesnt work, everytime jb needs to score he does. Lincoln trials dake could of taken out jb 2 matches to none he had a lead and his amazing defense wasnt as good as jbs amazing offense

What does the record have to be to believe jb is better ? 20-1?  Records matter. Proof is in the pudding. And did jb point to that record on flo? No, all class. All he had to do was say record. End of argument. Instead dake is acting tough when he jumped weights to avoid jb and has a near 15 percent winning percentage against jb 

 

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15 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Dakes plan has been exactly that in freestyle, play defense and grind out a win against jb. That style doesnt work, everytime jb needs to score he does. Lincoln trials dake could of taken out jb 2 matches to none he had a lead and his amazing defense wasnt as good as jbs amazing offense

What does the record have to be to believe jb is better ? 20-1?  Records matter. Proof is in the pudding. And did jb point to that record on flo? No, all class. All he had to do was say record. End of argument. Instead dake is acting tough when he jumped weights to avoid jb and has a near 15 percent winning percentage against jb 

 

Are you high?  He (rightfully, btw) brought up the record about 50 times!  And in the single match they have wrestled on fully equal footing, Burroughs scored one offensive point, a pushout, and was given his winning point (criteria) after a shot clock.  The match up is going to be tight next year if it happens, you're purposely choosing to look at it without any context.  The "proof is in the pudding" is very apt.  When they had to both wrestle at the same tournament with nobody getting any rest afvantages, the match was razor thin and officiated...oddly.  And Dake still nearly won at the buzzer.

49 minutes ago, nyum said:

A single win in a best of 3 series isn't exactly indicative of superiority. Not putting words in your mouth, just putting that out there.

I get it.  I'm not picking Dake over Burroughs next year because of their record.  I just think that current Dake is better than current Burroughs.

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10 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I get it.  I'm not picking Dake over Burroughs next year because of their record.  I just think that current Dake is better than current Burroughs.

You may be right on that. Dake is an absolute monster on the mat. 

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