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Fletcher

'11 Burroughs v '13 Dake - analysis without the drama

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6 minutes ago, nyum said:

You may be right on that. Dake is an absolute monster on the mat. 

It pains me to say it, but I also favor current Dake over current JB. JB is super old for elite wrestling now, plus he has three kids.

But 2011 JB and 2013 Dake is not close.  JB would have had indisputable neutral superiority, and he would have exploited that.

Edited by Katie

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Classic. Everyone always predicts Dake to lose the fantasy matchups. And yet somehow he wins them every time. 

 

Except against Burroughs-then he loses the fantasy and real match ups.  As a consolation though, let’s all agree that freshman and sophomore Dake beats Freshman and sophomore Burroughs. 

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2 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

 

Taylor will never beat dake and dake is never beating burroughs in any matchup - dakes mental toughness edge against his competition is like the mental edge burroughs has on dake. Only question will be what will dake's excuse be this time ? 

So you’re saying Dake should go up to 86kg?

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Here’s my take... 2013 Dake is better on the mat and defensively on his feet. 2011 Burroughs is better at takedowns. They are both up there in the list of GOAT and I am sure it would be a close match. I don’t think anyone can dispute those “facts”. Who wins in that match? We obviously don’t know, but I would give the nod to Burroughs because when it comes down to a close match, takedowns usually win. He won a freestyle would championship in 2011 by wrestling folk style because he was just that good on his feet. His clean finishes are the worst style match up for Dakes defense. I do think Dake could ride Burroughs but I don’t think he gets the opportunity. Burroughs takes neutral, and contrary to Dakes opinion, I doubt he reverses Burroughs. Maybe he gets a takedown on JB but then I’m confident JB would just get one more if he needed it. We’ve seen it countless times, when Burroughs needs a takedown, he goes and gets it. Only way he loses is if Dake keeps it close and takes him down in the closing seconds. I admit that’s a possibility and could see Dake winning that way 3-4 times out of ten. 

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4 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

Taylor getting stifled isn't that groundbreaking - j'den cox stifled taylor, dake continued to do so in freestyle. It just boggles my mind why this is no different than taylor vs dake - why did people continue to pick taylor and why do people continue to pick dake against burroughs  ? The record is not close.

dakes defense is so good against burroughs that when he has had a chance to beat him with lead in third period burroughs scored when he needed to.  

dake and taylor are perceived so much better in college because they came in better freshman year. Burroughs career isn't seen in the same light since he was a late bloomer but senior year burroughs was so good he left college and instantly won worlds - how did dake and taylor do right out of college ? 

dake is being a real fake tough guy as of late - so confident he can beat burroughs he decided to go up weight class in an olympic year to duck burroughs because he knew he couldn't beat him.

Taylor will never beat dake and dake is never beating burroughs in any matchup - dakes mental toughness edge against his competition is like the mental edge burroughs has on dake. Only question will be what will dake's excuse be this time ? 

A real fake tough guy?

And as far as excuses go, having to go though Howe and Taylor just to earn the opportunity to wrestle JB an hour later seems pretty damn reasonable.

I have no idea who'd win the hypothetical folkstyle match at issue, but I suspect it would be closely contested.

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5 hours ago, Katie said:

It pains me to say it, but I also favor current Dake over current JB. JB is super old for elite wrestling now, plus he has three kids.

But 2011 JB and 2013 Dake is not close.  JB would have had indisputable neutral superiority, and he would have exploited that.

jb has been old the last several times he has wrestled dake. you wanna see a more athletic burroughs ? look at the first time they wrestled

Burroughs has won decidedly on the record book due to mental toughness, and better tactics. Dake needs to score to beat burroughs he can't play his usual defensive game

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5 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Are you high?  He (rightfully, btw) brought up the record about 50 times!  And in the single match they have wrestled on fully equal footing, Burroughs scored one offensive point, a pushout, and was given his winning point (criteria) after a shot clock.  The match up is going to be tight next year if it happens, you're purposely choosing to look at it without any context.  The "proof is in the pudding" is very apt.  When they had to both wrestle at the same tournament with nobody getting any rest afvantages, the match was razor thin and officiated...oddly.  And Dake still nearly won at the buzzer.

I get it.  I'm not picking Dake over Burroughs next year because of their record.  I just think that current Dake is better than current Burroughs.

you can't blame your losing on the process and then go out and lose when you have equal footing -  and the way he lost was worse. Dake was not agressive - another example of tactical defensive low scoring "gamer" dake style that wins against everyone not named burroughs - not working against burroughs.  And then Dake complained again after the match. 

Winners go out and win not continue to whine, complain, lose, and whine after they lose.

JB has had to wrestle top top competition on short rest at the world level for a long time -JB is not using the excuse.  ...but kyle is a world champion too.....no comparison in those weight classes.

JB should of asked Dake why he went up to 86 to wrestle cox instead of jb that one year - drop mic.

Taylor and DAKE moved weight classes due o jb - 2 world champions. and JB has a large sample size of beating both - put some respect on his name. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

you can't blame your losing on the process and then go out and lose when you have equal footing -  and the way he lost was worse. Dake was not agressive - another example of tactical defensive low scoring "gamer" dake style that wins against everyone not named burroughs - not working against burroughs.  And then Dake complained again after the match. 

Winners go out and win not continue to whine, complain, lose, and whine after they lose.

JB has had to wrestle top top competition on short rest at the world level for a long time -JB is not using the excuse.  ...but kyle is a world champion too.....no comparison in those weight classes.

JB should of asked Dake why he went up to 86 to wrestle cox instead of jb that one year - drop mic.

Taylor and DAKE moved weight classes due o jb - 2 world champions. and JB has a large sample size of beating both - put some respect on his name. 

 

 

None of this is relevant to the question posed by this thread.  It's like saying player A was a better college lacrosse player than player B because he had a better box lacrosse career.

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They are both just too good for me to pick against either one.  You would think Dake is entering the middle of his prime while JB is exiting his prime, but he is superman in my mind.  I would love to see JB get one more and then for Dake to get a couple more.  Time will tell.  

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If we're being honest, which many are not in this thread, it is more likely that Dake shuts Burroughs out of than Burroughs scores two Takedowns.

JB said he wouldn't go down.

So no free points.

I have Dake in this one. Even takedowns. One escape for Dake. No riding time. 3-2.

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41 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

If we're being honest, which many are not in this thread, it is more likely that Dake shuts Burroughs out of than Burroughs scores two Takedowns.

JB said he wouldn't go down.

So no free points.

I have Dake in this one. Even takedowns. One escape for Dake. No riding time. 3-2.

This is pretty much how I see it going down as well. I highly doubt that JB could blast double through Dake in a folkstyle match once, let alone anytime he wanted, and that was before JB really developed his amazing single leg and counter single offense.  Burroughs was an absolutely phenomenal athlete with elite tactics and mental toughness that year, but he was very technically one dimensional.  That's not a knock; it's more of a tribute to how insanely he has improved year after year always adding something to his arsenal.  I think Dake was a significantly better scrambler, could create scrambles in this match that would be to his advantage, and could absolutely pick up a riding time point in there. Don't see what attacks Burroughs could possibly use to score multiple takedowns and shut down Dake...

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On 4/17/2020 at 12:08 PM, Fletcher said:

Dake and Burroughs talked a little about this hypothetical match, but got sidetracked and didn't get into as much analysis as I hoped. I'm hoping some of our board members with better memories than me can answer some questions so we can take a better guess at how this match would shake out.

Dake on top - did anyone ride JB in the 2010-2011 season - either long enough to get riding time or for an entire period? If so, who and how does he compare to Dake? Who got away from Dake on bottom in 2012-2013 and how did his bottom skills compare to JB? Any chance Dake turns JB? Did anyone turn JB in 2010-2011?

Dake on bottom - I have no doubt he gets away from JB before riding time accrues, but is there anything to Dake's claim that he would get a reversal? How many reversals did Dake get in 2012-2013? How many reversals did JB give up in 2010-2011?

Neutral - I don't follow freestyle, but I assume their neutral wrestling in free is the best proxy for how they would do against each other in folk - fair assumption? I also assume JB wins this position because a past-his-prime JB beat Dake in free so a 2013 JB is even better - also a fair assumption?

I will take ‘14 Taylor.

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2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

If we're being honest, which many are not in this thread, it is more likely that Dake shuts Burroughs out of than Burroughs scores two Takedowns.

JB said he wouldn't go down.

So no free points.

I have Dake in this one. Even takedowns. One escape for Dake. No riding time. 3-2.

So you think the 2013 version of Dake — who lost to the Russian backup 1-7 — was somehow equal in neutral to the 2011 version of Burroughs — who was the undefeated world champ? 

I’m not sure even Dake believes that. 

Edited by Katie

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3 hours ago, Katie said:

So you think the 2013 version of Dake — who lost to the Russian backup 1-7 — was somehow equal in neutral to the 2011 version of Burroughs — who was the undefeated world champ? 

I’m not sure even Dake believes that. 

Freestyle results don’t translate so simply. Especially when talking about Dake. In freestyle you are forced to open up in neutral as you don’t have the mat wrestling to fall back on. 

In Folk, Dake could absolutely block off And stifle JB. Plus he even would have the OB for added defense as JB would have to finish his takedowns in bounds with no penalty for push outs. 

I haven’t been arguing that Dake is better in Free. The results speak for themselves. Although I do believe he has caught up to him now.  I just truly believe Dake’s best style was Folk and JB is much better in Free. 

Edited by MSU158

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3 hours ago, Katie said:

So you think the 2013 version of Dake — who lost to the Russian backup 1-7 — was somehow equal in neutral to the 2011 version of Burroughs — who was the undefeated world champ? 

I’m not sure even Dake believes that. 

There must be an excuse for that loss.

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It's impossible for most people to look back at Burroughs in college without looking at what he did in Freestyle (shortly after and all the way until today).  Folkstyle wrestling is not freestyle wrestling.  There are hundreds of examples of this.  Burroughs is made for freestyle wrestling and became one of the best Americans and maybe the 10 best humans at freestyle wrestling in the history of the world.  That doesn't mean college Burroughs was better at Folkstyle wrestling than college Burroughs actually was.  That Burroughs could absolutely be slowed down and frustrated by tactical wrestling/stalling and top wrestling.  Tyler Caldwell was less than 30 seconds away from beating him at the conference tournament and gave up a reversal instead of an escape.  In that match Burroughs was the better wrestler by about 5000% but got dragged out of his match.  2 weeks later he avoided that and majored him.  But pretending he was world champion Burroughs in March of 2011 is forgetting he wasn't and he was competing in a different sport.

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On 4/17/2020 at 1:46 PM, Katie said:

2011 JB:

  • Hodge Winner. 20-0 in freestyle. World Champ.

2013 Dake:

  • Hodge Winner. 3-2 in freestyle. Fifth at the Golden Grand Prix.

Conclusion: JB all day.

5th with a broken hand. And you might mention that he bitch slapped JBs nemesis tsargush along the way to taking 5th

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6 hours ago, boconnell said:

It's impossible for most people to look back at Burroughs in college without looking at what he did in Freestyle (shortly after and all the way until today).  Folkstyle wrestling is not freestyle wrestling.  There are hundreds of examples of this.  Burroughs is made for freestyle wrestling and became one of the best Americans and maybe the 10 best humans at freestyle wrestling in the history of the world.  That doesn't mean college Burroughs was better at Folkstyle wrestling than college Burroughs actually was.  That Burroughs could absolutely be slowed down and frustrated by tactical wrestling/stalling and top wrestling.  Tyler Caldwell was less than 30 seconds away from beating him at the conference tournament and gave up a reversal instead of an escape.  In that match Burroughs was the better wrestler by about 5000% but got dragged out of his match.  2 weeks later he avoided that and majored him.  But pretending he was world champion Burroughs in March of 2011 is forgetting he wasn't and he was competing in a different sport.

Thanks for writing this.  There appear to be a few here who can't seem to understand your final seven words.

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6 hours ago, boconnell said:

It's impossible for most people to look back at Burroughs in college without looking at what he did in Freestyle (shortly after and all the way until today).  Folkstyle wrestling is not freestyle wrestling.  There are hundreds of examples of this.  Burroughs is made for freestyle wrestling and became one of the best Americans and maybe the 10 best humans at freestyle wrestling in the history of the world.  That doesn't mean college Burroughs was better at Folkstyle wrestling than college Burroughs actually was.  That Burroughs could absolutely be slowed down and frustrated by tactical wrestling/stalling and top wrestling.  Tyler Caldwell was less than 30 seconds away from beating him at the conference tournament and gave up a reversal instead of an escape.  In that match Burroughs was the better wrestler by about 5000% but got dragged out of his match.  2 weeks later he avoided that and majored him.  But pretending he was world champion Burroughs in March of 2011 is forgetting he wasn't and he was competing in a different sport.

Doesn’t he score most of his points in freestyle with takedowns?

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In my opinion JB wins a folk match in their primes. But right now I am picking Dake to win the trials. However Dake has put a lot of pressure on himself after that interview. If he doesn't win he is going to look like a smuck. I know it is smack talk but he basically laid out the groundwork that there is no way JB wins at this stage of their careers. I kind of agree with him but dang I felt uncomfortable watching that.

Edited by PRyan2012

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2 hours ago, PRyan2012 said:

I was about to say the same thing. 220 vs 280

Snyder weighed in at 230 at NCAAs against Gwiz the year before.

**TWO years before.

Edited by nhs67

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