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There's a big conversation on Lee vs. Gilman, but how about this one? I think a lot of people are underrating the chances of some tough competitors by assuming Lee vs. Gilman will happen. I feel like guys like Fix or Suriano could really make a statement by upsetting Lee or Gilman early in the bracket.

Specially Fix who we already saw beating Gilman last year, even though Thomas avenged the losses later, both have evolved and I would love to see another match, I personally think Lee is a overall a better wrestler than Fix and wouldn't have that much of a problem though.

Suriano is pretty new to freestyle, I'm pretty sure he won't win the trials but that doesn't mean he should be underrated by his Lee or Thomas, we saw him upset Colon while he was just starting to take freestyle seriously. 

Gotta think this will happen in a hole year where all of this guys will evolve a little bit more, so yeah. What do you all think?

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Any of these guys could make the team. I think Lee and Fix are our best options here. I think Lee is the most talented, but he is also the smallest, and there is a theory out there that he gasses late in matches. Wrestling bigger guys will wear you out faster. That said, we didn't see any signs of gassing the last time he wrestled freestyle. I would love to see any of these possible match ups except Fix/Suriano. I hope we never see those two wrestle each other ever again.

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2 hours ago, Crotalus said:

Any of these guys could make the team. I think Lee and Fix are our best options here. I think Lee is the most talented, but he is also the smallest, and there is a theory out there that he gasses late in matches. Wrestling bigger guys will wear you out faster. That said, we didn't see any signs of gassing the last time he wrestled freestyle. I would love to see any of these possible match ups except Fix/Suriano. I hope we never see those two wrestle each other ever again.

I think they average .25 takedowns a match. I'l check my math later.

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1 hour ago, headache said:

I think they average .25 takedowns a match. I'l check my math later.

To be fair, their "longest match ever" was really entertaining despite the lack of scoring. Because they were actually trying to score. But their matches since then have been some of, if not the most painfully boring matches I've ever seen.

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I think Gross deserves to be included as well, and Vito if Suriano is.   Should be fun once it actually happens.

Agreed. We are very deep at 57. Of course, so is the rest of the world. Regardless of who makes the team (whenever we have one again) could make the finals or be out after the first round, depending on the draw.

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I think Gross deserves to be included as well, and Vito if Suriano is.   Should be fun once it actually happens.

i was bored awhile back and went and watched gross' matches at the farrell (i kind of ignored that whole tourney last year)...

he was abnormally huge for that weight... nicky pushups should have had that match, but, was(is) entirely too folk-centric and made a silly mistake late... 

add in the farrell was just a one day weigh in and i just don't see gross as being top 4 domestically...

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5 hours ago, Crotalus said:

Any of these guys could make the team. I think Lee and Fix are our best options here. I think Lee is the most talented, but he is also the smallest, and there is a theory out there that he gasses late in matches. Wrestling bigger guys will wear you out faster. That said, we didn't see any signs of gassing the last time he wrestled freestyle. I would love to see any of these possible match ups.

I personally don't think Fix will make the team, he was doing great in 2019 and then got taken out in the second round at Worlds and at the Matteo Peliconne he lost to Gilman again and I think a Chinese dude if I remember correctly. Dude is dangerous but imo Lee takes him out, unlike Gilman who I think he can beat and stop Lee vs. Gilman from happening. Yeah you're right, guys like Gross (who's huge) can make Lee gas out if he puts on a good performance, he's probably the smallest dude in the bracket. 

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I think Gross deserves to be included as well, and Vito if Suriano is.   Should be fun once it actually happens.

I'm 100% sure Gross is not going to win, he is very, very good but not at that level yet. Same with Vito, he is good too but we already saw him getting tech falled by Fix and Lee last year, he isn't at their level.

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3 hours ago, Crotalus said:

To be fair, their "longest match ever" was really entertaining despite the lack of scoring. Because they were actually trying to score. But their matches since then have been some of, if not the most painfully boring matches I've ever seen.

Agreed. We are very deep at 57. Of course, so is the rest of the world. Regardless of who makes the team (whenever we have one again) could make the finals or be out after the first round, depending on the draw.

Which is true for basically every weight in Olympic years. 

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25 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Which is true for basically every weight in Olympic years. 

Well, literally speaking, sure. But we have medal favorites at 3 weights (regardless of who makes the team at 74 and 97) that would be shocking to be one and done. I don't currently see any of our 65 kg placing without a hell of a lucky draw, let alone making the finals (I would love to be wrong about that). And 125 kg is bronze at best, no matter what. I think 57 kg is the most up in the air because I think we have gold medal potential, but there is a lot of parity in the weight, both in the US and across the world. So neither one and done or making the finals would shock me.

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9 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Well, literally speaking, sure. But we have medal favorites at 3 weights (regardless of who makes the team at 74 and 97) that would be shocking to be one and done. I don't currently see any of our 65 kg placing without a hell of a lucky draw, let alone making the finals (I would love to be wrong about that). And 125 kg is bronze at best, no matter what. I think 57 kg is the most up in the air because I think we have gold medal potential, but there is a lot of parity in the weight, both in the US and across the world. So neither one and done or making the finals would shock me.

Why could/would JO or Yianni not be expected to place?  Haven’t they both beat world #1 or world champions?

 

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19 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Why could/would JO or Yianni not be expected to place?  Haven’t they both beat world #1 or world champions?

 

It's the deepest weight in the world and we've not performed well on the world stage in quite along time, let alone the Olympics when the weight will be even deeper. I know our guys can beat the best in the world on the right day, but those days don't seem to be during Worlds/Olympics, let alone making a run through multiple top competitors in a row. I think JO is currently our best but don't think he can make a sustained run without a mental lapse that costs him a match and I think Yianni is the future because he has such a great feel for international wrestling, but I don't think he's there yet. And Zain is rock solid, but don't think he has the feel for freestyle, though he has improved in the regard. But I also don't expect this weight to go one and done. Again, I'd love to be wrong but if I were a betting man, I would not lay my money down on the US placing at 65.

Regardless, I don't see this weight as falling under the " could make the finals or be out after the first round" category I was initially referring to.

Edited by Crotalus

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4 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

It's the deepest weight in the world and we've not performed well on the world stage in quite along time, let alone the Olympics when the weight will be even deeper. I know our guys can beat the best in the world on the right day, but those days don't seem to be during Worlds/Olympics, let alone making a run through multiple top competitors in a row. I think JO is currently our best but don't think he can make a sustained run without a mental lapse that costs him a match and I think Yianni is the future because he has such a great feel for international wrestling, but I don't think he's there yet. And Zain is rock solid, but don't think he has the feel for freestyle, though he has improved in the regard. But I also don't expect this weight to go one and done. Again, I'd love to be wrong but if I were a betting man, I would not lay my money down on the US placing at 65.

The other thing is...we might not qualify 65 for the Olympics

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Well certainly we do not know who will win  at any of our weights, but I think that Spencer looked very good at the Senior Nationals. So I guess the question is do I think he can beat Gilman and Fix, and I think that he can, because he is basically an offensive juggernaut both on his feet and on top. Meanwhile Gilman and Fix just aren’t always offensive enough. But as the other posters have started we have a lot of talent at 57 so it’s going to be very interesting to see how it plays out. 
At 65, I think we have a 3 way race between Zain, J.O. and Yianni, but who knows Eierman could also make the team, but I think Yianni is our best bet, based on his offense, his funky quirky style, which I think will frustrate and confuse his opponents. 
 

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21 hours ago, LJB said:

i was bored awhile back and went and watched gross' matches at the farrell (i kind of ignored that whole tourney last year)...

he was abnormally huge for that weight... nicky pushups should have had that match, but, was(is) entirely too folk-centric and made a silly mistake late... 

add in the farrell was just a one day weigh in and i just don't see gross as being top 4 domestically...

Do you think Suriano is?   He's probably cutting just as much as Gross to get to 57

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19 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Why could/would JO or Yianni not be expected to place?  Haven’t they both beat world #1 or world champions?

 

 

18 hours ago, Crotalus said:

It's the deepest weight in the world and we've not performed well on the world stage in quite along time, let alone the Olympics when the weight will be even deeper. I know our guys can beat the best in the world on the right day, but those days don't seem to be during Worlds/Olympics, let alone making a run through multiple top competitors in a row. I think JO is currently our best but don't think he can make a sustained run without a mental lapse that costs him a match and I think Yianni is the future because he has such a great feel for international wrestling, but I don't think he's there yet. And Zain is rock solid, but don't think he has the feel for freestyle, though he has improved in the regard. But I also don't expect this weight to go one and done. Again, I'd love to be wrong but if I were a betting man, I would not lay my money down on the US placing at 65.

Regardless, I don't see this weight as falling under the " could make the finals or be out after the first round" category I was initially referring to.

To go a step further, I think its 50/50 we even qualify 65.  I was saying last summer during the Yianni/Zain fiasco...we do not want to have to come down to the last chance qualifier at 65.  We do not want to have to go into Eastern Europe to navigate that field as our only/last shot at qualifying.  And here we are, having to do just that, waiting for that date to be set (like everyone else) but without a clue who our rep is going to be (not like everyone else)

50/50 at best

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4 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

To go a step further, I think its 50/50 we even qualify 65.  I was saying last summer during the Yianni/Zain fiasco...we do not want to have to come down to the last chance qualifier at 65.  We do not want to have to go into Eastern Europe to navigate that field as our only/last shot at qualifying.  And here we are, having to do just that, waiting for that date to be set (like everyone else) but without a clue who our rep is going to be (not like everyone else)

50/50 at best

Agreed...depending on how the European and Asian OG qualifiers shake out, it could be a lot lower than 50% to qualify 65.

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12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Do you think Suriano is?   He's probably cutting just as much as Gross to get to 57

Clearly, you did not see them wrestle at the Farrell...

gross is making a hero cut to make 57... 

suriabo made scratch two days in a row for senior nationals and looked just fine doing it...

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11 hours ago, LJB said:

Clearly, you did not see them wrestle at the Farrell...

gross is making a hero cut to make 57... 

suriabo made scratch two days in a row for senior nationals and looked just fine doing it...

Gross is taller but seems naturally skinny.   Suriano had like negative body fat even at 133, I believe they are likely cutting similar amounts but no, no way to really know for sure

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Good discussion for a great field at 57kg, but one factor that will "weigh in" this year is the fact that the athletes have to make scratch weight on both days.  That variable will loom large for many of the athletes.  In the past, in some of the Akron tournaments, guys weighed in once for a two day tournament, so the cutting was crazy and by the end of day two guys were jumping 15-18 pounds.   It played a huge factor in matches and the new weigh in procedures take that HUGE advantage away for the guys cutting HARD.  When it was a day before weigh-in or two days before--if you didn't cut hard you were at a significant disadvantage.  

If you have to make scratch on both days, one guy is not going to put enough on to have any meaningful advantage and the guys cutting too much will be at a large disadvantage.   Another factor is the influence a hard weight cut has on the preparation leading into the tournament.    

As one example, Nick Suriano is a great wrestler and extremely hard to score on, but he looked so physical different at Senior Nationals at 57KG than he did in the NCAA Finals.  I thought 133 was a great weight for him and I believe 57kg is a little on the smaller side for him, so I think it hurt him on that day.  I believe Colon, Fix, Gilman, Vito and Gross are also cutting hard to make that weight.  I thought weight played a factor in the last Gilman and Fix series. Both are studs and proven competitors, but I thought the cut took a little out of both of them and I thought it showed.  

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:36 AM, 1032004 said:

Do you think Suriano is?   He's probably cutting just as much as Gross to get to 57

I would say he is likely cutting more.  Gross wasn't cutting much to make 57, as he was managing his weight appropriately(weighing UNDER 133lbs during the college season prior to the Farrell.

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On 4/27/2020 at 11:59 PM, de4856 said:

At 65, I think we have a 3 way race between Zain, J.O. and Yianni, but who knows Eierman could also make the team, but I think Yianni is our best bet, based on his offense, his funky quirky style, which I think will frustrate and confuse his opponents. 
 

Huh?

Why not mention McKenna, who beat Johnny D or Lee who beat your boy Eierman?  Right now Eierman does not strike me as having a chance to be top 3 with what we've last seen from him.

I want him to have a chance.  His latest performance shows otherwise, though.

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5 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Huh?

Why not mention McKenna, who beat Johnny D or Lee who beat your boy Eierman?  Right now Eierman does not strike me as having a chance to be top 3 with what we've last seen from him.

I want him to have a chance.  His latest performance shows otherwise, though.

Eierman hasn’t even qualified for the trials yet. 

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32 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I would say he is likely cutting more.  Gross wasn't cutting much to make 57, as he was managing his weight appropriately(weighing UNDER 133lbs during the college season prior to the Farrell.

I think if Gross was weighing under 133 during the college season that doesn’t necessarily mean he wasn’t cutting a lot, just that he was smart about it.

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