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Avashadt

Freestyle bottom position

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Can someone explain why you never really see any action from the guy in the bottom position? Is there really no way to escape or get a reversal that doesn't put you at too much risk for back exposure? My only experience has been folkstyle so this has always been a mystery to me.

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You basically said it   While there is a small chance for escape or a reversal it’s not worth the risk against a decent freestyle top guy.  There isn’t much incentive to try when you don’t get many points for the effort (0 for escape and 1 for reversal) and the fact you are going to get stood up by the ref after around 10sec on bottom anyway.  But you are risking a lot considering the top guy could use your movement and raise hips to turn you one if not multiple turns.  Most reversals and escapes come from preventing a turn and that causes your opponent to be out of position.  Not from the bottom guy creating the action.  

Edited by MadMardigain

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against anyone who has good par terre offense (almost non-existent in this country) your only options are to defend... and if they have above average par terre you better understand the defense pretty well or the match is going to be over in a cocaine heartbeat...

try to stand up?

you just became part of the highlight reel going belly-to-back for 5...

sit out?

gutted out of the match...

hip heist?

you have just exposed yourself...

good par terre is a thing of beauty... offense and defense both... 

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Plus the belief that the guy on bottom is doing nothing is not accurate.  The guy on bottom is countering every move the guy on top is doing by moving and getting the top guy out of position so he cannot complete his move.  This is not as easy as it looks.  I wrestled Veterans a few years (and I was not that good really) and I know this from experience.  A par terre position that results in no turns is more due to the effectiveness of the defense than the ineffectiveness of the offense. 

mspart

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Years ago there was briefly a rule that gave one for an escape and you did see escapes with some frequency.

Does not seems like a bad rule, not sure why it was dropped

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18 minutes ago, mspart said:

Plus the belief that the guy on bottom is doing nothing is not accurate.  The guy on bottom is countering every move the guy on top is doing by moving and getting the top guy out of position so he cannot complete his move.  This is not as easy as it looks.  I wrestled Veterans a few years (and I was not that good really) and I know this from experience.  A par terre position that results in no turns is more due to the effectiveness of the defense than the ineffectiveness of the offense. 

mspart

this 100%...

the only caveat i would add is that too often we see the top guy do absolutely nothing in par terre particularly in this country...

it is shameful...

 

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26 minutes ago, LJB said:

against anyone who has good par terre offense (almost non-existent in this country) your only options are to defend... and if they have above average par terre you better understand the defense pretty well or the match is going to be over in a cocaine heartbeat...

try to stand up?

you just became part of the highlight reel going belly-to-back for 5...

sit out?

gutted out of the match...

hip heist?

you have just exposed yourself...

good par terre is a thing of beauty... offense and defense both... 

There was a gut wrench sequence in the Mcllravy/Ingali olympic bout that was one of the best 15 seconds of par terre vs par terre I've ever seen.  

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There was a gut wrench sequence in the Mcllravy/Ingali olympic bout that was one of the best 15 seconds of par terre vs par terre I've ever seen.  

post that link brother...

let the unwashed masses be educated on a true art form!!!

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ugh... video blocked in this country...

where i come from we call that a c*** tease...

 

apparently, you can view it outside of the forum directly in the youtubes...

Edited by LJB
i'm a dummy...

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11 minutes ago, LJB said:

ugh... video blocked in this country...

where i come from we call that a c*** tease...

 

apparently, you can view it outside of the forum directly in the youtubes...

If you're on chrome, try explorer.  

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anyway... watched it...

i do not know if i would characterize it as the best example i have ever seen of par terre... igali's head on the mat offends me... but, it was definitely a good example and well worth the watch...

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15 minutes ago, LJB said:

anyway... watched it...

i do not know if i would characterize it as the best example i have ever seen of par terre... igali's head on the mat offends me... but, it was definitely a good example and well worth the watch...

Granted I haven't watched in a long time until I just looked up.  The head on the mat doesn't bother me because it was only when Mcllravy was working the lock and not really working the gut yet.  He gets head and chest high when he starts working the gut.  Anyway.....I just remember in real time thinking man that was some world class gut defense that just got beat by a little bit better gut offense.

Edited by Lurker

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

Granted I haven't watched in a long time until I just looked up.  The head on the mat doesn't bother me because it was only when Mcllravy was working the lock and not really working the gut yet.  He gets head and chest high when he starts working the gut.  Anyway.....I just remember in real time thinking man that was some world class gut defense that just got beat by a little bit better gut offense.

i don't disagree... live i'm sure i would have thought similar...

and yes, he got his head up once the lock was secured, but, i can't help thinking if his head/chest is up earlier, it helps force his hips down and fight the initial lock... 

again, that is nit picking from the benefit of replay and sitting in my chair nerding out on it...

if i had to speculate, igali probably did not expect any kind of real par terre offense and got caught a little bit off guard...

pure speculation...

 

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2 hours ago, Avashadt said:

Can someone explain why you never really see any action from the guy in the bottom position? Is there really no way to escape or get a reversal that doesn't put you at too much risk for back exposure? My only experience has been folkstyle so this has always been a mystery to me.

go find some old film of Dave Schultz. And obviously if there was an escape point it would help, if you know the top guy can just let you go at any point its harder to wrestle for a reversal.

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2 hours ago, Avashadt said:

Can someone explain why you never really see any action from the guy in the bottom position? Is there really no way to escape or get a reversal that doesn't put you at too much risk for back exposure? My only experience has been folkstyle so this has always been a mystery to me.

In my book this is one of the great low scoring matches, really tactical. Also one of the only freestyle matches where it looks like the top guy just can't ride the bottom guy at all.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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3 hours ago, LJB said:

i don't disagree... live i'm sure i would have thought similar...

and yes, he got his head up once the lock was secured, but, i can't help thinking if his head/chest is up earlier, it helps force his hips down and fight the initial lock... 

again, that is nit picking from the benefit of replay and sitting in my chair nerding out on it...

if i had to speculate, igali probably did not expect any kind of real par terre offense and got caught a little bit off guard...

pure speculation...

 

I remember at the time feeling like he tried to trap him and Linc just kept fighting threw it.  But like you said, speculation

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On 5/4/2020 at 11:31 AM, Jim L said:

Years ago there was briefly a rule that gave one for an escape and you did see escapes with some frequency.

Does not seems like a bad rule, not sure why it was dropped

It was too subjective / tedious a rule.  All of the following had to be met for an escape to be awarded. 

1. All action had to be started from the bottom wrestler.

2.  The bottom wrestler had to be on his belly to start, then stand up on his own power to get to his feet. 

3.  The bottom wrestler had to break the hands of the top wrestler (so if the top wrestler was not locked up, no escape could occur. (Often times the top wrestler would just let go completely and shove the bottom wrestler away which negated the escape.)

4.  The bottom wrestler had to turn and face his opponent immediately and stay in close proximity.  (Most USA folkstyle escapes you create distance to get a chance to reset.  This would automatically negate the escape in FS and GR.) 

5.  The bottom wrestler had to immediately advance on / attack his opponent.

Edited by neutralpositionref

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On 5/4/2020 at 12:57 PM, hammerlockthree said:

In my book this is one of the great low scoring matches, really tactical. Also one of the only freestyle matches where it looks like the top guy just can't ride the bottom guy at all.

How'd Schultz get away with wearing that sweater under his singlet?  :-)

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There's no point in trying to get away on bottom. You're not rewarded and you expose yourself to a potential turn. With the current rules the top man doesn't get a whole lot of time to work, so if you just keep solid position and fight off one attempt at a turn the ref will put you back on your feet. So a lot of risk and zero reward (unless you get a reversal which is more likely to happen from fighting a turn anyways). Even if there was an escape point the risk is way higher than the reward when you will be back on your feet in <15 seconds anyways.

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Why can't (or shouldn't) rules allow the bottom wrestler to fight back more instead of "opening up"?  It makes the bottom wrestler so passive and it looks downright submissive.

My bigger problem is with allowing unlimited leg lace and gut wrench turns.   That often ruins a competitive match.  

Put them back on their feet after 2 turns.  

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