Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
mspart

2000 vs current

Recommended Posts

There were some classic names on the 2000 team.  How would you rate that team to what we have now? 

2000  Henson, Brands, Kolat, McIlravy, Slay, Burton, Douglas, McCoy

Current:   Gilman/Fix/Lee, Yianni/Zain, Burroughs/Dake, Taylor, Snyder/Cox, Gwiz/Gable

Which would you rate as the better team, granted 8 weights against 6, but it might be a fun discussion.

I was at the 2000 US Nationals when Melvin Douglas came back to get some exercise and won.  He was really fun to watch.  I was disappointed that McCoy had the spot, I thought Neal was the better man, but McCoy studied him and beat him.  Because I am older and nostalgic, I'll go with 2000.  They had more grit I think.  If Gutches had been healthy and made the team, it would be a no brainer. 

mspart

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the present team is better. Keep in mind that Slay didn't actually win gold during the tournament and was awarded it due to a doping test, so nobody left the olympics with gold in 2000. 2000 had 4 medals in 8 weights, so to be equivalent, this team will need to win 3 in the 6 weights, which I think they will do (I think 74, 86, and 97 kg will all take home medals with at least one gold).  I wouldn't be surprise to see one of Lee/Fix, Yianni/Zain, or Gable/Gwiz win a medal.  Also, it's fair to say that both may be past their prime, but nobody on the 2000 team was as good as either Snyder or Burroughs.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BH,

Nice assessment.  Yes Slay slipped in there for sure.  Thanks for the input.  I will disagree. 

I think Henson and Brands and Kolat would take care of biz with our current first two weights. 

I'll give you Burroughs though, but Mac was really good, but JB has staying power. 

Taylor would probably beat Burton as he has shown by winning gold,

Snyder takes the 2000 Douglas and don't know about

HW, McCoy was pretty good, and Neal better internationally IMHO.   So maybe it is a push. 

Kolat was robbed of medaling in 2000, Brands was robbed of the finals and so was Henson, by lousy officiating.  Again in my opinion.  Poor Kolat, one of the greats that never took gold and all because of blatant ref mistakes. 

mspart

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, mspart said:

Brands was robbed of the finals and so was Henson, by lousy officiating. 

 

 

I watched Brand vs Dabir live in 2000.  Can you tell me where you think the bad calls were? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

to be fair, stopping that bow and arrow at the end was a bit chincy... there really isn't anything dangerous about it... doesn't go against the joint... it just looks bad if you are not familiar with it...

i still would not call it a robbery though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mspart said:

BH,

Nice assessment.  Yes Slay slipped in there for sure.  Thanks for the input.  I will disagree. 

I think Henson and Brands and Kolat would take care of biz with our current first two weights. 

I'll give you Burroughs though, but Mac was really good, but JB has staying power. 

Taylor would probably beat Burton as he has shown by winning gold,

Snyder takes the 2000 Douglas and don't know about

HW, McCoy was pretty good, and Neal better internationally IMHO.   So maybe it is a push. 

Kolat was robbed of medaling in 2000, Brands was robbed of the finals and so was Henson, by lousy officiating.  Again in my opinion.  Poor Kolat, one of the greats that never took gold and all because of blatant ref mistakes. 

mspart

 

 

This isn’t a dual meet. Overall, the expected 2021 team is more decorated than the 2000 team against the rest of the world. That doesn’t even factor in the emerging guys like Fix/Lee, Yianni, and Gable who aren’t yet proven at the senior level but have had outstanding junior results. The odds are that whoever emerges as “the guy” between Lee and Fix will end up with more world medals than Sammie Henson or possibly even Terry. I expect Yianni to end up with more than Mac. And like I said, Burroughs/Snyder are both top 10 overall wrestlers in US history (with Burroughs either #2 or #3). Nobody on the 2000 team cracks the top 10. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irani said:

I watched Brand vs Dabir live in 2000.  Can you tell me where you think the bad calls were? 

 

just for info (you probably know that yourself) the USA team officially protested that match, (which was possible at the time) they reviewed it and even made the final score 6-4. even took one point off from Brands.

another match was the exact opposite, Talaei lost to Kolat, the Iranian team officially protested, FILA accepted the protest and per rules made them wrestle once again and Talaei won this time.

Iran also had a very good team for that Olympics but that new clinch rule (chest to chest) cost Iran some medals, Iranians were very weak in that, Talaei, Jadidi and Khadem lost in clinch, Heidari who was very confident and was in peak of his career at the time lost to Kurtanidze's perfect defense. Tavakkolian lost only 2-2 to Daniel Igali eventual gold medalist.

speaking of Dabir and 2000 Olympics, if you watch the final, someone jumps on the mat and hugs Dabir giving him the flag and crying, he is now in ICU because of COVID-19 and unfortunately it seems he is not going to survive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, wrestfan said:

if you watch the final, someone jumps on the mat and hugs Dabir giving him the flag and crying, he is now in ICU because of COVID-19 and unfortunately it seems he is not going to survive.

I assume you are referring to Parvis Sirouspour,  I did not see him in the video.  I sure hope he recovers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irani said:

I assume you are referring to Parvis Sirouspour,  I did not see him in the video.  I sure hope he recovers

Yes, him, you can see him at 4:50

 

Edited by wrestfan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, irani said:

I watched Brand vs Dabir live in 2000.  Can you tell me where you think the bad calls were? 

 

Dabir is as cool as the other side of the pillow.  Achieved great things and overcame a lot to get there.  For one, he is diabetic and that is why he never sported the 'Marines' logo on his singlet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Dabir is as cool as the other side of the pillow.  Achieved great things and overcame a lot to get there.  For one, he is diabetic and that is why he never sported the 'Marines' logo on his singlet.

Your ability to create very interesting, and completely untrue stories is very impressive!! :)

Edited by irani

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those were the good old days of US wrestlers getting jobbed at any opportunity.  Henson's singlet grab, Kolat's bs protest, Brands leg turk being stopped, etc.  Even Slay had dubious penalties assessed gifting his opponent 3 points.   The 2000 Olympics were a joke.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember Brands mentioning that when Dave Schultz taught him the move, most of the time it will be stopped based on the optics rather than legality. I can't remember if it was one of the FloFilms or a technique video but I definitely remember him saying it. So yes he was hosed on the inside/out turk to bow & arrow, and no it was not surprising. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

This isn’t a dual meet. Overall, the expected 2021 team is more decorated than the 2000 team against the rest of the world. That doesn’t even factor in the emerging guys like Fix/Lee, Yianni, and Gable who aren’t yet proven at the senior level but have had outstanding junior results. The odds are that whoever emerges as “the guy” between Lee and Fix will end up with more world medals than Sammie Henson or possibly even Terry. I expect Yianni to end up with more than Mac. And like I said, Burroughs/Snyder are both top 10 overall wrestlers in US history (with Burroughs either #2 or #3). Nobody on the 2000 team cracks the top 10. 

What if it was a dual meet?  Fantasy dual meet.  Would be cool to see happen.

For Irani, regarding the officiating, I stand by my statement. 

mspart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mspart said:

For Irani, regarding the officiating, I stand by my statement. 

mspart

I respect that you stand by your statement.  I was asking which particular calls were bad, perhaps the time on the video, so I could watch the video and understand why you think he was robbed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At 7:04, They give Dabir a takedown, clearly wasn't.

At 7:58, Brands took Dabir down, no call, may have had back points too.

At 9:01, Brands had a take down but ref called him out of bounds. 

At 9:18  Brands got a the bow and arrow and it was called off.  Clearly had it. 

Brands lost 6-5, By my count Dabir didn't have a point so 5-5, Brands did at least 5-6, another takedown not called, 5-7, and a bow and arrow 5-9. 

Yes, Brands was robbed. 

mspart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mspart said:

At 7:04, They give Dabir a takedown, clearly wasn't.

At 7:58, Brands took Dabir down, no call, may have had back points too.

At 9:01, Brands had a take down but ref called him out of bounds. 

At 9:18  Brands got a the bow and arrow and it was called off.  Clearly had it. 

Brands lost 6-5, By my count Dabir didn't have a point so 5-5, Brands did at least 5-6, another takedown not called, 5-7, and a bow and arrow 5-9. 

Yes, Brands was robbed. 

mspart

Many thanks for sharing your opinion.  Much appreciated

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll admit to being a homer, but it was all Brands in the 2nd period and he never caught a break.  I was upset about it then,  and now that I've watched it again, I'm upset again.  Thanks Irani :)

But that first move by Dabir, I have to admit was a thing of beauty.  He was just so out of shape he coudn't keep that kind of action going.  In most FS matches, you wouldn't need to.  But he was wrestling Brands who always mounted furious comebacks. 

mspart

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll take that as three statements:

1.  Brands got hosed.   I agree

2.  Brands is a *****    I agree

3. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.   I don't think he's that nice, good wrestler, notnice on the mat or off. 

:)

We were at the WTT in Seattle in 1999 and Brands was trying to get on the team.  His matches with Guerrero had my dad really upset with him.  He knew nothing of him except what he was witnessing.  Called him dirty.  That was  a great tourney to watch.  I had a great time.  I live in Seattle now and wish it would come back.  I later went to the Pan Ams in Winnipeg that year.  That was good too.  I lived in Apple Valley MN at the time. 

mspart

×

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Not sure how he was jobbed. Dabir hit a sweet move and handed him a big deficit.  Dabir was smart and wrestled conservative.  Brands resorted  to a move he knew was dicey and the results were predictable. 

As I noted, Dabir was given a TD where Brands was denied one as he took Dabir out of bounds back exposed.  And again another TD that wasn't called for Brands.  So even without the bow and arrow, Brands should have won.  And yes, Dabir did hit a sweet move for sure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mspart said:

As I noted, Dabir was given a TD where Brands was denied one as he took Dabir out of bounds back exposed.  And again another TD that wasn't called for Brands.  So even without the bow and arrow, Brands should have won.  And yes, Dabir did hit a sweet move for sure. 

Yeah, some calls could have gone his way.  However, none were egregious.  If you are going to score it that way, you have to give Dabir more as well.  Definitely a potential brutality point for that bush league after the whistle and off the mat td. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you look at individual matches, it doesn't seem egregious, but when you look at the entirity of the 2000 Games, there was a very obvious anti US for the whole tournament.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...