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shieldofpistis

College season vs olympic redshirt

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9 hours ago, shieldofpistis said:

I was wondering if there was a stat that showed whether taking the Olympic redshirt was a better way than wrestling the college season in regard to winning the OTT? 

I tried doing a quick search on how many wrestling ORS' made that year Olympic team but nothing came up.  You'd probably have to go back and see first what college athletes have made olympic team (I know even though we had two in the last one that number is going to be small), then see whether or not they took an ORS, then go back through each olympic year and list out all the athletes that did take an ORS.  

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This is an interesting question, but it would be really difficult to do this type of analysis because:

1. Not many people take Olympic redshirts and very few college-eligible athletes qualify for the Olympics, so there is a small sample size. Analogously, because so many people don’t take Olympic redshirts there would have to be some type of normalization to account for the difference between those who do and don’t take them.

 

2. There is selection bias in favor of those who take them, since to qualify for an Olympic redshirt requires a certain level of accomplishment and those who choose to do so clearly have aspirations for international competition. 
 

3. The Olympics are only every four years, so certain circumstances of the past (e.g. less focus on freestyle early on), may no longer apply today. Therefore conclusions extrapolated from data from the past may not be applicable to athletes of the present. 
 

So because of these reasons, and probably others that I am missing, I don’t think these type of statistics exist, or if they do, they likely do not represent the value (or lack thereof) of an Olympic redshirt.  If I had to predict, I’d say the value of an Olympic redshirt depends entirely on the type of athlete-is he self motivated enough at a young age to stay focused without the college season? Does he need more freestyle/Greco experience? Does his body need rest either from competition or the constant weigh ins? 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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17 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

So because of these reasons, and probably others that I am missing, I don’t think these type of statistics exist, or if they do, they likely do not represent the value (or lack thereof) of an Olympic redshirt.  If I had to predict, I’d say the value of an Olympic redshirt depends entirely on the type of athlete-is he self motivated enough at a young age to stay focused without the college season? Does he need more freestyle/Greco experience? Does his body need rest either from competition or the constant weigh ins? 

This is the best answer imo.  The reality is, what's best for any particular individual is going to be different per individual, and really best known to themselves and their "team". Just because Daton Fix took a redshirt doesn't mean its best for Spencer Lee to, and just because Kyle Snyder did a hybrid doesn't mean its best for Yianni....

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Bobby Weaver 1980 and Barry Davis 1984 I believe both took O-Rs and made the Olympic team. Randy Lewis 1980, Ken Chertow 1988, John Smith 1988, J'Den Cox 2016, Kyle Snyder 2016 all made the Olympic team without redshirting. Those are the ones I found, I just looked from 1980-2016. 

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On 5/11/2020 at 6:53 PM, Lurker said:

This is the best answer imo.  The reality is, what's best for any particular individual is going to be different per individual, and really best known to themselves and their "team". Just because Daton Fix took a redshirt doesn't mean its best for Spencer Lee to, and just because Kyle Snyder did a hybrid doesn't mean its best for Yianni....

Good point. A guy may need a little more seasoning wrestling high level opponents. Maybe is game is pretty good but he needs to work on his feet, wrestling the college season let's him get in a little needed work.

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3 hours ago, funnyfletcher said:

Bobby Weaver 1980 and Barry Davis 1984 I believe both took O-Rs and made the Olympic team. Randy Lewis 1980, Ken Chertow 1988, John Smith 1988, J'Den Cox 2016, Kyle Snyder 2016 all made the Olympic team without redshirting. Those are the ones I found, I just looked from 1980-2016. 

Don't believe they had O-rs in 80s.  Worth noting Smith took regular RS after So year (lost to Jordan in finals) competed in FS that year (also dont believe he competed for Ntl team).  Jr year won NCAA then made Ntl team & won World.  Sr year won NCAA and Olympic.  I'd say his RS after So year did help him at international FS but wasn't directly that same year.

Edited by ionel

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i can see taking an olympic so they just would not have to bother with the everyday grind of the stall fest style... not have to worry about making a weight twice a week... not beat themselves up... avoid any unnecessary injury... it makes perfect sense to me...

i can also understand the thought process of the season manifesting a competitive edge...

then one thing that annoys me is that none of the redshirts ever appear to show up at trials with any better understanding of par terre... drives me fukn insane...

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20 hours ago, funnyfletcher said:

Bobby Weaver 1980 and Barry Davis 1984 I believe both took O-Rs and made the Olympic team. Randy Lewis 1980, Ken Chertow 1988, John Smith 1988, J'Den Cox 2016, Kyle Snyder 2016 all made the Olympic team without redshirting. Those are the ones I found, I just looked from 1980-2016. 

Funnyfletcher- Gene Mills and John Azevedo made the team in 1980 as well- Mills took a redshirt in 1980 but Azevedo did not.

 

By the way, I love the movie Fletch.

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16 hours ago, LJB said:

i can see taking an olympic so they just would not have to bother with the everyday grind of the stall fest style... not have to worry about making a weight twice a week... not beat themselves up... avoid any unnecessary injury... it makes perfect sense to me...

i can also understand the thought process of the season manifesting a competitive edge...

then one thing that annoys me is that none of the redshirts ever appear to show up at trials with any better understanding of par terre... drives me fukn insane...

That's where I get at there really is no concrete answer that covers everyone.  To your last point, I believe a good percentage of the ORS's take it knowing they have very little to no chance of making the team, and they take it only because of the earned opportunity for additional development without all the rigors you spoke to, but doesn't necessarily mean to develop their freestyle specific skills (like par terre). 

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7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I believe a good percentage of the ORS's take it knowing they have very little to no chance of making the team...

i am not sure i can agree with this... you have to qualify for the O shirt, so, you have to have some results, which, would mean you are on the pointy end already... 

i have to think all of those guys think they have a shot whether or not they realistically do...

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

i am not sure i can agree with this... you have to qualify for the O shirt, so, you have to have some results, which, would mean you are on the pointy end already... 

i have to think all of those guys think they have a shot whether or not they realistically do...

valid

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these are the 2020 O shirt qualifications...

1) Past National Team members (Top 3 from the World or Olympic Team Trials)

2) Top 8 at the 2019 Senior US Open

3) Top 3 at the 2019 NCAA Wrestling Championship or NCAA Champion from a previous year AND top 2 from the 2019 U23 World Team Trials (must accomplish both)

4) Previous Cadet, Junior, U23 World Medalist

if you qualify based on that criteria you have a shot...

and you should learn some fukn par terre...

but, i digress...

 

also, i have no idea how this compares to any qualifications procedures in the past, but, i have to think they are some what similar...

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

these are the 2020 O shirt qualifications...

1) Past National Team members (Top 3 from the World or Olympic Team Trials)

2) Top 8 at the 2019 Senior US Open

3) Top 3 at the 2019 NCAA Wrestling Championship or NCAA Champion from a previous year AND top 2 from the 2019 U23 World Team Trials (must accomplish both)

4) Previous Cadet, Junior, U23 World Medalist

if you qualify based on that criteria you have a shot...

and you should learn some fukn par terre...

but, i digress...

 

also, i have no idea how this compares to any qualifications procedures in the past, but, i have to think they are some what similar...

I get what you're saying that if you did enough to earn a qualification you have got some chops, and the term no shot a bit too drastic.  Agreed there.  Speaking more to your cases like Massa and what percentage shot does he really have overtaking JB, Dake, et al. (There are far more of those cases than a Fix or Yianni)  I think to your point, as you said you don't see the progression in par terre and other international specific skills, points to them looking at it like the benefit of wrestling development is higher than the shot of making the team.  They are aware and take advantage but unfortunately it gears more toward the style you and I care less about.  Then you have guys like Vito who, are really gearing it toward international development...but maybe taking a realistic approach that its really part of 2024 preparations.

Just a general opinion.  In this too, it's different for everyone.

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

these are the 2020 O shirt qualifications...

1) Past National Team members (Top 3 from the World or Olympic Team Trials)

2) Top 8 at the 2019 Senior US Open

3) Top 3 at the 2019 NCAA Wrestling Championship or NCAA Champion from a previous year AND top 2 from the 2019 U23 World Team Trials (must accomplish both)

4) Previous Cadet, Junior, U23 World Medalist

if you qualify based on that criteria you have a shot...

and you should learn some fukn par terre...

but, i digress...

 

also, i have no idea how this compares to any qualifications procedures in the past, but, i have to think they are some what similar...

I remember in the not too distant past (08 &12?), pretty anyone could take an ORS and it was definitely abused to give guys an extra redshirt who had no realistic chance at the Olympics

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