Best pound for pound

[provocateur 12]

It's Dake, morons. What does the guy need to do to get over your pathological biases?

[PRyan2012 347]

If it is Dake then he needs to not lose to Paulson this year then. I like Ruth and Steiber over Dake. Let's take Burroughs out then I think Dake would only be 50/50 on making the world team. I think Steiber is the favorite and he has an O bronze medalist at his weight. We will see next month at the open. I hope they all make the team!

[OCGrappler 44]

Just so I am clear on the rules, when Dake beats some in freestyle it doesnt count as far as his place in the folkstyle hierarchy but when he LOSES in freestyle...then it counts for folkstyle. Got it. Because if we are counting Dake's freestyle wins, he pinned the guy who clearly was the most dominant folkstyler in the country last year. But we only count the losses when it comes to Dake.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

It's Dake, morons. What does the guy need to do to get over your pathological biases?

 

Get your slurping goggles off and realize there are other wrestlers wrestling. Ruth wins this hands down.

I agree, then Steiber.

[provocateur 12]

I'm not understanding how other styles and non-college opponents come into the argument. This is the college wrestling forum. Collegiate wrestling is folkstyle. Dake is the best pound for pound college wrestler in my opinion with Taylor or Ruth probably second. The answer to any other shifted parameters is Burroughs.

 

I'm not surprised to see you obviously posting under the influence at this hour. To say that Ruth beats Dake hands down is absolutely ludicrous and horribly blinkered. You Penn State guys have absolutely no class.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

I'm not understanding how other styles and non-college opponents come into the argument. This is the college wrestling forum. Collegiate wrestling is folkstyle. Dake is the best pound for pound college wrestler in my opinion with Taylor or Ruth probably second. The answer to any other shifted parameters is Burroughs.

 

I'm not surprised to see you obviously posting under the influence at this hour. To say that Ruth beats Dake hands down is absolutely ludicrous and horribly blinkered. You Penn State guys have absolutely no class.

 

2 words, Ed Ruth. Learn them.

[provocateur 12]

2 words - Alcoholics Anonymous.

[VakAttack 3,966]

If we're counting Freestyle, then Ed Ruth is just out of the conversation. Ruth got absolutely housed last year by guys who are solid but not great freestylers.

[TheOhioState 525]

If we're counting Freestyle, then Ed Ruth is just out of the conversation. Ruth got absolutely housed last year by guys who are solid but not great freestylers.

 

Well, at least they were thoughtful enough to give him a place to stay. ;)

[scribe 1,824]

Just so I am clear on the rules, when Dake beats some in freestyle it doesnt count as far as his place in the folkstyle hierarchy but when he LOSES in freestyle...then it counts for folkstyle. Got it. Because if we are counting Dake's freestyle wins, he pinned the guy who clearly was the most dominant folkstyler in the country last year. But we only count the losses when it comes to Dake.

Lets face it. Greatest ever comes with a different set of conditions.

[GuillermoBilletas 149]

Dake

 

not even close

[rodneydeeeee 0]

If we're counting Freestyle, then Ed Ruth is just out of the conversation. Ruth got absolutely housed last year by guys who are solid but not great freestylers.

 

If we are talking freestyle, then no collegiate athlete is in this discussion. JB hands down. We're in the college section of the forum though, so I assumed we were talking folkstyle.

[BigRedMachine 210]

I don't get how freestyle results are relevant in a pound for pound folk style list. If one wrestler is really good at Judo, should we count that too? What about hopscotch?

[rodneydeeeee 0]

I don't get how freestyle results are relevant in a pound for pound folk style list. If one wrestler is really good at Judo, should we count that too? What about hopscotch?

 

That's what I'm saying.

[silver-medal 670]

Since we have no set criteria, there's no ideal answer to this question. Add in championships won as the #1 criteria--which would probably be consensus--and it's Kyle Dake.

 

Dominance as #1 criteria would change the perspective. Then you're talking about three guys from Ohio--Stieber, Kilgore and Taylor--plus two guys from PA--Ruth and Oliver.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Since we have no set criteria, there's no ideal answer to this question. Add in championships won as the #1 criteria--which would probably be consensus--and it's Kyle Dake.

 

Dominance as #1 criteria would change the perspective. Then you're talking about three guys from Ohio--Stieber, Kilgore and Taylor--plus two guys from PA--Ruth and Oliver.

 

When talking pound for pound, the only real way I see this is your opinion. Who do you think is the best at any weight. Not championships, or tech falls, etc. Basically, would J.O's skillset beat Ed Ruths skillset if they were both at the same weight. Would Delgads skillset beat Tony Nelson's. Lol, now that sounds crazy.

[Mokoma 324]

Since we have no set criteria, there's no ideal answer to this question. Add in championships won as the #1 criteria--which would probably be consensus--and it's Kyle Dake.

 

Dominance as #1 criteria would change the perspective. Then you're talking about three guys from Ohio--Stieber, Kilgore and Taylor--plus two guys from PA--Ruth and Oliver.

 

Why would Kilgore be considered when he was himself beat handily in the finals?

 

Then you are going to not have Dake in the top 5 even though he was undefeated and beat the defending Hodge champion?

 

You make little sense.

 

Dake is easily top 5 most dominant this year, maybe the top.

[Jason_L._Jackson 5]

Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

[rodneydeeeee 0]

Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

 

 

Well said.

[BigRedMachine 210]

Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

Could they do it as successfully as Dake though. I think if you consistently put these guys up against championship level competition, Dake will be the least likely to lose. Instead of thinking about if they could win using other styles, the better thought experiment is to think how they would fare against other styles. I definitely think Stieber would lose to a 133 pound Taylor, and I'm almost positive Dake would cruise past a 165 pound Ramos.

 

Ruth and Dake are very close but I can more easily seeing Ruth losing if he face a hodge candidate type wrestler.

[pjm46 83]

Ruth is the easy answer here.

 

He makes it look so easy. Just rewatch that Hamlin match and think about how easy he scored. Think about how easy he ripped him back in bounds to get a takedown. Think about the fact that Boask beat Q Wirght last year and than watch the Ruth vs Bosak match.

 

I seriously think Ruth could have gone up to 197 and won.

[romesone 7]

Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

Could they do it as successfully as Dake though. I think if you consistently put these guys up against championship level competition, Dake will be the least likely to lose. Instead of thinking about if they could win using other styles, the better thought experiment is to think how they would fare against other styles. I definitely think Stieber would lose to a 133 pound Taylor, and I'm almost positive Dake would cruise past a 165 pound Ramos.

 

Ruth and Dake are very close but I can more easily seeing Ruth losing if he face a hodge candidate type wrestler.

You say this despite Ruth and Steiber each having less losses than Dake in their careers

[BigRedMachine 210]

Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

Could they do it as successfully as Dake though. I think if you consistently put these guys up against championship level competition, Dake will be the least likely to lose. Instead of thinking about if they could win using other styles, the better thought experiment is to think how they would fare against other styles. I definitely think Stieber would lose to a 133 pound Taylor, and I'm almost positive Dake would cruise past a 165 pound Ramos.

 

Ruth and Dake are very close but I can more easily seeing Ruth losing if he face a hodge candidate type wrestler.

You say this despite Ruth and Steiber each having less losses than Dake in their careers

fewer*

 

And how many losses do each of them have in the last two years (The entirety of Stieber's career). I'll give you a hint: one of these things is not like the others.

[jstock 125]

IMHO - The best classical or technical wrestler is Oliver, hands down, no debate. No other wrestler is more proficient and dominating in all 3 positions with such a broad array of attacks. He has great mat smarts, technical skill, speed and strength.

 

Ruth is dominating with his intuition and freaky athleticism. He is great but is NOT a classical technical wrestler. Can anyone or any coach give an example of a move, any move that Ruth does that you can try and show a wrestler ? You can watch guys like Steiber, Taylor, Oliver and actually show that stuff in a room but Ruth stuff - no way. He scores on pure freaky god given gifts.

I am only a fan of Dake's accomplishments. The name of the game is WIN and he does just that. I am not a fan of riding a 2 on 1 Russian tie in neutral with no attempt to score just as I am not a fan him riding a claw with no attempt to turn on top. Americans like scoring. Dake plays a masterful game of win by 1 against top opponents. With that said, Dake has all the skills to dominate even the top opponents if he wanted to. He has great technique and IMHO- the best all around athlete of the bunch. He has phenomenal strength as shown by his crazy reversal against Taylor. He has better balance and Gyro than Russell.

 

Taylor is great, has been his whole career. Taylor is, IMHO the 2nd most proficient wrestler with Steiber a very close 3rd. (I honestly think Steiber is a notch below because most know Oliver should have scored the 2 so Steiber's credibility has an * )

[rodneydeeeee 0]

So you eliminate Ruth because he can't be duplicated? Makes no sense. Just remember that Michael Jordan didnt have the best shot, the best 3pt percentage, best ft percentage, etc. You get the drift. His athleticism couldn't be matched. Ruth could wrestle identical to Dake if he wanted. Take you down and hold you down.

If he wants to take you down, he will and that's all there is to it. If he wants to ride you, count on not getting out.