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Best pound for pound

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If we're counting Freestyle, then Ed Ruth is just out of the conversation. Ruth got absolutely housed last year by guys who are solid but not great freestylers.

 

If we are talking freestyle, then no collegiate athlete is in this discussion. JB hands down. We're in the college section of the forum though, so I assumed we were talking folkstyle.

 

Huh? People have been using Freestyle success as part of the equation among the current collegiate wrestlers to determine who is the best pound for pound. That's why Burroughs has no place in the argument.

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Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

Could they do it as successfully as Dake though. I think if you consistently put these guys up against championship level competition, Dake will be the least likely to lose. Instead of thinking about if they could win using other styles, the better thought experiment is to think how they would fare against other styles. I definitely think Stieber would lose to a 133 pound Taylor, and I'm almost positive Dake would cruise past a 165 pound Ramos.

 

Ruth and Dake are very close but I can more easily seeing Ruth losing if he face a hodge candidate type wrestler.

 

 

Right even though 184 was probably the toughest weight class this year. Are you kidding Ruth hasn't been touched and he faced a much tougher road the an dake or Taylor. Ruth is easily the best p5p and I don't see either dake or Taylor remotely coming close to beating him, the reason why I say this is how easy he makes it look, dake and Taylor actually look like they are working hard to dominate, Ruth makes it look easy, imagine how good he'll get when he gets consistently pushed on the senior circuit.

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IMHO - The best classical or technical wrestler is Oliver, hands down, no debate. No other wrestler is more proficient and dominating in all 3 positions with such a broad array of attacks. He has great mat smarts, technical skill, speed and strength.

 

Ruth is dominating with his intuition and freaky athleticism. He is great but is NOT a classical technical wrestler. Can anyone or any coach give an example of a move, any move that Ruth does that you can try and show a wrestler ? You can watch guys like Steiber, Taylor, Oliver and actually show that stuff in a room but Ruth stuff - no way. He scores on pure freaky god given gifts.

I am only a fan of Dake's accomplishments. The name of the game is WIN and he does just that. I am not a fan of riding a 2 on 1 Russian tie in neutral with no attempt to score just as I am not a fan him riding a claw with no attempt to turn on top. Americans like scoring. Dake plays a masterful game of win by 1 against top opponents. With that said, Dake has all the skills to dominate even the top opponents if he wanted to. He has great technique and IMHO- the best all around athlete of the bunch. He has phenomenal strength as shown by his crazy reversal against Taylor. He has better balance and Gyro than Russell.

 

Taylor is great, has been his whole career. Taylor is, IMHO the 2nd most proficient wrestler with Steiber a very close 3rd. (I honestly think Steiber is a notch below because most know Oliver should have scored the 2 so Steiber's credibility has an * )

 

Your assessment of Ruth's ability is pure farce. Number 1 being an ex swimmer he's got great lungs. Number 2, his setup and finishes are exceptional, especially disguising which leg he's attacking And he hits the corner very quickly, thus avoiding scramble, also, when riding he's very good at applying pressure by keeping his hip a high, the guy is far more technically sound then you state. You don't win as much as he does without being sound technically.

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IMHO - The best classical or technical wrestler is Oliver, hands down, no debate. No other wrestler is more proficient and dominating in all 3 positions with such a broad array of attacks. He has great mat smarts, technical skill, speed and strength.

 

Ruth is dominating with his intuition and freaky athleticism. He is great but is NOT a classical technical wrestler. Can anyone or any coach give an example of a move, any move that Ruth does that you can try and show a wrestler ? You can watch guys like Steiber, Taylor, Oliver and actually show that stuff in a room but Ruth stuff - no way. He scores on pure freaky god given gifts.

I am only a fan of Dake's accomplishments. The name of the game is WIN and he does just that. I am not a fan of riding a 2 on 1 Russian tie in neutral with no attempt to score just as I am not a fan him riding a claw with no attempt to turn on top. Americans like scoring. Dake plays a masterful game of win by 1 against top opponents. With that said, Dake has all the skills to dominate even the top opponents if he wanted to. He has great technique and IMHO- the best all around athlete of the bunch. He has phenomenal strength as shown by his crazy reversal against Taylor. He has better balance and Gyro than Russell.

 

Taylor is great, has been his whole career. Taylor is, IMHO the 2nd most proficient wrestler with Steiber a very close 3rd. (I honestly think Steiber is a notch below because most know Oliver should have scored the 2 so Steiber's credibility has an * )

 

Your assessment of Ruth's ability is pure farce. Number 1 being an ex swimmer he's got great lungs. Number 2, his setup and finishes are exceptional, especially disguising which leg he's attacking And he hits the corner very quickly, thus avoiding scramble, also, when riding he's very good at applying pressure by keeping his hip a high, the guy is far more technically sound then you state. You don't win as much as he does without being sound technically.

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1. Oliver, he wrestled a weight up from his optimal weight and did not give up a takedown all season. Also besides Stieber, Oliver's skills probably translates best to freestyle.

2. Dake, could be argued that he wrestled up one weight, but looked like he filled in well. He beat the most dominate folk styler 3 times this year. Dake would be number 1, but I don't know how he can get by Burroughs.

3. Stieber, skills translates well to freestyle.

4. Ruth, dominated all year, but not sure how well he will do in freestyle.

5. Taylor , if not for dake, he would be 1 or 2 , although not sure how his top skills will benefit is freestyle game.

 

Folk style is great and all, but in the end, it's freestyle that matters most because it is the style used by the world/Olympics

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IMHO - The best classical or technical wrestler is Oliver, hands down, no debate. No other wrestler is more proficient and dominating in all 3 positions with such a broad array of attacks. He has great mat smarts, technical skill, speed and strength.

 

Ruth is dominating with his intuition and freaky athleticism. He is great but is NOT a classical technical wrestler. Can anyone or any coach give an example of a move, any move that Ruth does that you can try and show a wrestler ? You can watch guys like Steiber, Taylor, Oliver and actually show that stuff in a room but Ruth stuff - no way. He scores on pure freaky god given gifts.

I am only a fan of Dake's accomplishments. The name of the game is WIN and he does just that. I am not a fan of riding a 2 on 1 Russian tie in neutral with no attempt to score just as I am not a fan him riding a claw with no attempt to turn on top. Americans like scoring. Dake plays a masterful game of win by 1 against top opponents. With that said, Dake has all the skills to dominate even the top opponents if he wanted to. He has great technique and IMHO- the best all around athlete of the bunch. He has phenomenal strength as shown by his crazy reversal against Taylor. He has better balance and Gyro than Russell.

 

Taylor is great, has been his whole career. Taylor is, IMHO the 2nd most proficient wrestler with Steiber a very close 3rd. (I honestly think Steiber is a notch below because most know Oliver should have scored the 2 so Steiber's credibility has an * )

You can't teach Ruth's crossface cradle? I'm guessing you can't teach a single wrestling move if that is the case.

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You can take sound bytes and prove me wrong if you like. Sure you can teach Ruths cross face cradle. Will that version work as well as JO's cradle assuming you dont have long and strong arms like Ruth? Ruth's cradle is a simple cross face cradle. His length and strength make it work on anyone. Watch JO's and you see lots of stuff going on. You hear college kids scream out from the torque and discomfort.

Arcadia- It's a matter of opinion. I disagree. Ruth's set ups work because he is on another athletic level. The set up does not have to be as pronounced or complete because his athleticism finishes the job. As an example, if Ruth does an elbow pass 1. His strength will pass the elbow with more force and less effort than most others and 2. His reach and power will make up for and deficiencies in his set up.

Dake also uses his athleticism and gyro in a similar way but is more evident when he uses his athleticism to get out of trouble. Watch how he uses awareness and athleticism in his final with Montel Marion when going to his back on a MM TD attempt.

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I think it's right to say both that Ruth can do things differently because of his phenomenal athletic gifts, AND that he has great technique.

 

I'll give an example. WNBA players are always saying that they are much more technically sound that NBA players. If you take the way basketball is taught in high schools as the measure of what is technically sound, then they are right. WNBA players do what coaches teach, and they do it amazingly well.

 

But there's a reason NBA players do things differently. They are so phenomenally gifted, what doesn't work for ordinary people works for them. And so they develop their own standard of what is technically good based on their capabilities. And guess what. The NBA is the best basketball league in the world.

 

So what I'm saying is that Ruth's standard of what is technically good is just different than ours. That doesn't make it bad.

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Stieber and Ruth wrestle a more aggressive style, especially against better wrestlers. They look to score more often, not only from neutral, but also from the top position.

 

Dake wrestles a more conservative style against better opponents, looking for a takedown and a ride. Dake doesn't really look to score from the top position, simply to rack up riding time.

 

The question in my mind is, could Stieber and Ruth do what Dake does, and, conversely, could Dake do what Stieber and Ruth do?

 

I say that, if they wanted, Stieber and Ruth could take a guy down, ride him without trying to score, and win 4-0. However, I don't think that Dake can take top 5 wrestlers down and score on them from the top position, almost at will. Honestly, if he could I think he would.

 

Therefore, in my humble opinion, that makes Stieber and Ruth more dominant and therefore better "pound for pound". It's splitting hairs, but, that's what you have to do when judging between truly great wreslters.

Could they do it as successfully as Dake though. I think if you consistently put these guys up against championship level competition, Dake will be the least likely to lose. Instead of thinking about if they could win using other styles, the better thought experiment is to think how they would fare against other styles. I definitely think Stieber would lose to a 133 pound Taylor, and I'm almost positive Dake would cruise past a 165 pound Ramos.

 

Ruth and Dake are very close but I can more easily seeing Ruth losing if he face a hodge candidate type wrestler.

 

 

Right even though 184 was probably the toughest weight class this year. Are you kidding Ruth hasn't been touched and he faced a much tougher road the an dake or Taylor. Ruth is easily the best p5p and I don't see either dake or Taylor remotely coming close to beating him, the reason why I say this is how easy he makes it look, dake and Taylor actually look like they are working hard to dominate, Ruth makes it look easy, imagine how good he'll get when he gets consistently pushed on the senior circuit.

 

Personally I feel T. Caldwell is about the same level as Bosak and Hamlin. The 184 guys have benefited from being in a relatively weak weight the past few years which has allowed the better guys in that division to build up pedigrees beyond their skill level (no offense to them, but Hamlin is not as skilled as your typical multiple time finalist and Bosak is not as skilled as your typical champ.) The fact that Dake had to go through Taylor is in and of itself proof that Dake had the much tougher road to winning the title. And he did it giving up 1 takedown all year. Ruth gave up at least 3 off the top of my head and possibly more.

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I am in no way implying that what Ruth does is bad. He is an elite athlete and has good technique. The topic was your rationale for comparing the best of the best. He seems like a great kid who has fun and has a great attitude. I envy his no stress demeanor while dominating.

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Ruth gave up a few more takedowns because he chooses to be up and wrestling MUCH more. He could easily, very easily, take an opponent down and ride him all match. That's not his style though. THANKFULLY!

 

Ruth used to work Taylor in the room when Taylor was 65 and Ruth was 74. Pretty darn good considering they know each other well.

 

The fact that Dake had to go through Taylor means nothing. JUST because you beat Taylor does not mean you are the best. That's a terrible conclusion.

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Well be interesting to watch a potential Burroughs vs Dake match. If Dake goes the same weight as JB then I think he is for a reason. Dake and JB worked out getting ready for Olympics. If Dake goes the same weight as JB then he is confident in the result, he has a plan. Dakes athleticism may be able to give JB fits. We just may see how athletic Dake is in the next few weeks.

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Ruth gave up a few more takedowns because he chooses to be up and wrestling MUCH more. He could easily, very easily, take an opponent down and ride him all match. That's not his style though. THANKFULLY!

 

Ruth used to work Taylor in the room when Taylor was 65 and Ruth was 74. Pretty darn good considering they know each other well.

 

The fact that Dake had to go through Taylor means nothing. JUST because you beat Taylor does not mean you are the best. That's a terrible conclusion.

Actually Ruth gave up the first takedown a few times this year. One of those ended in a Tf over the Nebraska josh ihnen.

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Ruth gave up a few more takedowns because he chooses to be up and wrestling MUCH more. He could easily, very easily, take an opponent down and ride him all match. That's not his style though. THANKFULLY!

 

Ruth used to work Taylor in the room when Taylor was 65 and Ruth was 74. Pretty darn good considering they know each other well.

 

The fact that Dake had to go through Taylor means nothing. JUST because you beat Taylor does not mean you are the best. That's a terrible conclusion.

I never said it proves Dake is better, I said it proves Dake had the tougher road to being a champion. Which it does.

 

As for Ruth beating up on Taylor, CP used to beat up on Dustin in the room. Funny results happen when two wrestlers train together every day. I wouldn't use that as evidence that one is better than the other.

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I never said it proves Dake is better, I said it proves Dake had the tougher road to being a champion. Which it does.

 

As for Ruth beating up on Taylor, CP used to beat up on Dustin in the room. Funny results happen when two wrestlers train together every day. I wouldn't use that as evidence that one is better than the other.

 

Brothers beating up each other versus someone that only met that year is completely different, expecially an older brother beating on a younger brother. Entirely. And yes, Dake's final opponent may have been better, but I am not convinced the entire road was that much easier. Ed Ruth just makes it look like that.

Beating Hamlin and Bosak back to back definitely isn't easy.

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Well be interesting to watch a potential Burroughs vs Dake match. If Dake goes the same weight as JB then I think he is for a reason. Dake and JB worked out getting ready for Olympics. If Dake goes the same weight as JB then he is confident in the result, he has a plan. Dakes athleticism may be able to give JB fits. We just may see how athletic Dake is in the next few weeks.

 

Are you serious? Seriously? You don't think JB hasn't faced far more athletic folks than Dake? This argument is bordering on silly, considering, Jordan has beaten far more impressive wrestlers than Dake. Dake would get worked over by a Tsargush. Actually, I'm going to find this funny how much better even the average international wrestler is compared to what Dake has faced on the college scene. It's not to say that Dake will not develop until a great international wrestler but he is not near the level of JB at the moment or the top international wrestlers.

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Some of you guys are thick as ten planks. The question asked is BEST pfp wrestler in college. Whoever threw out Taylor and Kilgore as possibilities must have had a lobotomy, as they were not even the best in their respective weight classes.

 

Best p4p doesn't mean most dominant, most likely to score points from top or most aggressive style, either - nor who has the least losses over the course of a career. We're talking 2013, folks, not career.

 

Kyle Dake is the best p4p in college this year. The only other guy with a hint of an argument is Ed Ruth.

 

It's amazing to me when people say that Dake is content to get a few points and ride - perhaps that's true against Caldwell and last year's Hodge winner (whom he beat three times this season!). It isn't true most of the time.

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Ruth gave up a few more takedowns because he chooses to be up and wrestling MUCH more. He could easily, very easily, take an opponent down and ride him all match. That's not his style though. THANKFULLY!

 

Ruth used to work Taylor in the room when Taylor was 65 and Ruth was 74. Pretty darn good considering they know each other well.

 

The fact that Dake had to go through Taylor means nothing. JUST because you beat Taylor does not mean you are the best. That's a terrible conclusion.

I never said it proves Dake is better, I said it proves Dake had the tougher road to being a champion. Which it does.

 

As for Ruth beating up on Taylor, CP used to beat up on Dustin in the room. Funny results happen when two wrestlers train together every day. I wouldn't use that as evidence that one is better than the other.

 

Bubba Jenkins used to work over Taylor in the room too ... oh wait never mind.

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Arcadia-you may be correct. I never stated that Dake would beat JB, I said he may be able to give JB fits. Dake has not been tested yet on the international scene. JB had immediate success. Cael was a 4x champ and had good success right away, then Olympic gold with more experience. Dake is a 4x champ with some of his own unique gifts. I am not saying he can be a world champ right out of he gate. Would you be surprised if he did well though? Would be good to see Dake go to Tsblisi and see how he does there.

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Some of you guys are thick as ten planks. The question asked is BEST pfp wrestler in college. Whoever threw out Taylor and Kilgore as possibilities must have had a lobotomy, as they were not even the best in their respective weight classes.

 

Best p4p doesn't mean most dominant, most likely to score points from top or most aggressive style, either - nor who has the least losses over the course of a career. We're talking 2013, folks, not career.

 

Kyle Dake is the best p4p in college this year. The only other guy with a hint of an argument is Ed Ruth.

 

It's amazing to me when people say that Dake is content to get a few points and ride - perhaps that's true against Caldwell and last year's Hodge winner (whom he beat three times this season!). It isn't true most of the time.

 

I don't care even if he does get a few points win all of the time, Kellen Russell did the same thing and what he went undefeated for what 2 years??? Some people have a controlled wrestling style, because, it simply leaves less opportunity for your opponent. JB said that was the biggest difference between college and the international game, is that he would go go go and get himself into trouble, and he learned the international game is far based on technique and good positioning. Yes, he is very quick but he sets up his blast double better than anyone I've ever seen, watch, his instructional videos, his technique is unreal. And it's all about the slightest opening to exploit, you can totally dominate someone even though the score might only be 2-0.

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Ruth gave up a few more takedowns because he chooses to be up and wrestling MUCH more. He could easily, very easily, take an opponent down and ride him all match. That's not his style though. THANKFULLY!

 

Ruth used to work Taylor in the room when Taylor was 65 and Ruth was 74. Pretty darn good considering they know each other well.

 

The fact that Dake had to go through Taylor means nothing. JUST because you beat Taylor does not mean you are the best. That's a terrible conclusion.

I never said it proves Dake is better, I said it proves Dake had the tougher road to being a champion. Which it does.

 

As for Ruth beating up on Taylor, CP used to beat up on Dustin in the room. Funny results happen when two wrestlers train together every day. I wouldn't use that as evidence that one is better than the other.

 

Bubba Jenkins used to work over Taylor in the room too ... oh wait never mind.

exactly. Bubba won, but Bubba wasn't/isn't the beter wrestler. Their body of work from that season demonstrates that.

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