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You used the fact that Ruth did better than Q against Bosak as proof that Ruth would win 197. That's comparing Ruth of this year to Q of last year:

If Bosak didn't improve then you would be correct. If you're assuming Q and Ruth improved then you should assume Bosak did as well. Therefore, the Bosak Ruth beat was better than the one Q lost to.

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You used the fact that Ruth did better than Q against Bosak as proof that Ruth would win 197. That's comparing Ruth of this year to Q of last year:

 

You're confusing things. It's simple.

 

Q got better than he was last year.

So did Bosak.

So did Ruth.

 

A better Ruth beat a better Bosak. Yes, Q got better to, but it's not certain he got better enough to beat Bosak. Also remember how convincing Ruths wins were. There was never any doubt in his matches. Steinhouse also gave Q fits. So did Hamiln.

Tbh, I might say Bosak got worse. Remember he was battling staph for most of the year and couldn't really train. The difference between those guys and Q is that Q is SUBSTANTIALLY better than he was last year and doing it at a higher weight class to boot. Q's results from last year really mean nothing at this point.

 

going from the 6 seed at 184 to having an undefeated season at 197 is a pretty big improvement.

 

Bosak only lost to 2 wrestlers this year; the Champ, and the runner up. I'm not sure he really got worse. I'm not sure anyone really gets worse (people claimed that with Caldwell also).

 

Q has ALWAYS been under seeded.

 

Who knows though. It's tough to say... I'm not even sure why or how we got to this point in the conversation, lol.

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2010: Hamlin DNP ( 2 and BBQ) at NCAAs, Caldwell 5th

2011: Both were runner-up, though Caldwell lost to Burroughs and had a win over Howe

2012: Caldwell redshirt but made it to semi-finals of the Olympics trials (lost 1-0, 1-0 to Howe). Hamlin 4th at NCAA's, lost to Appalachian State guy

 

You can definitely argue Caldwell over Hamlin. Taylor vs Bosak isn't remotely close.

 

Regardless, I've watched enough of both of them to feel how I feel. Caldwell doesn't do anything special. His offense is equivelant to Hamlin. He may ride a bit better. Hamlin is just as good at getting out from bottom. If anything, Hamlin is a tad under. I don't see him losing to someone such as that kid from Bucknell. That kid at App St that beat Hamlin last year wrestled a good tourney, and obviously beat other quality wrestlers as well.

 

Yes, Taylor is much better than anyone else that we've mentioned. That I agree on.

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You are making too much out of a 1 point loss in December. Caldwell was 2 points from being in the finals of the Olympic trials. That's more that Ruth can say, let alone the Appalachian State guy that beat Hamlin.

 

If I was going to rank the top 5 wrestlers (p4p) at 165 and 184 combined:

 

1) Dake

2) Taylor

3) Ruth

4) Calwell

5) tie: Bosak & Hamlin

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Would we consider Taylor the best P4P had he executed one more takedown against Dake and won the match in the Finals. We all know his previous losses would have been forgiven. Its interesting to see how a 1 pt match agaist the census #1 and in some fans books the all time #1 change opinions.

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Would we consider Taylor the best P4P had he executed one more takedown against Dake and won the match in the Finals. We all know his previous losses would have been forgiven. Its interesting to see how a 1 pt match agaist the census #1 and in some fans books the all time #1 change opinions.

 

The problem with that is - after the first one, DT was nowhere near close to executing another takedown. Seriously, the match was not as close as the score. So yeah - in an alternate fantasy world, DT might be the best P4p, but there are, after all, an infinate number of fantasy universes!

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Hypothetically, had Taylor started tilting Dake immediately following the takedown, and teched Dake in the 1st period, would that have led to:

A. Taylor being the best P4P?

B. Taylor being named King of the Universe?

C. Rodney's head imploding?

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exactly. Bubba won, but Bubba wasn't/isn't the beter wrestler. Their body of work from that season demonstrates that.

 

Why again are you arguing Bubba wasn't the better wrestler? Because Bubba had a couple of losses on the season, I'll let you identify the paradox in your argument. I for sure saw nothing in that match that would lead me to believe DT on fact was better than Bubba absolutely nothing.

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Wasn't Bubba a World Champ? And a NCAA finalist, having lost to Metcalf? What makes Taylor better than Bubba?

Taylor has 3 losses his entire career (2 of which came at the hands of perhaps the greatest college wrestler ever).

 

Bubba had how many? 25? I can't believe we're having this conversation. Bubba even says Taylor is a better wrestler than him.

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exactly. Bubba won, but Bubba wasn't/isn't the beter wrestler. Their body of work from that season demonstrates that.

 

Why again are you arguing Bubba wasn't the better wrestler? Because Bubba had a couple of losses on the season, I'll let you identify the paradox in your argument. I for sure saw nothing in that match that would lead me to believe DT on fact was better than Bubba absolutely nothing.

There's no paradox there. Taylor dismantled wrestlers Bubba struggled with. Bubba also had more than "a couple" losses that year. Taylor didn't wrestle his best that match but the body of the season shows who the better wrestler was.

 

As a thought experiment, imagine if Ruth froze up under the bright lights this year and got caught by Hamlin. Does that make Hamlin now and forever a better wrestler? of course not. It would just mean Hamlin took care of business when it mattered most.

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Caldwell doesn't belong in the conversation. Taylor beat him 10-0 this season. Mike Moreno from Iowa State beat him in thr Big 12 duals. Hamlin didn't win a title, very good wrestler though.

 

Realistically this season the argument can only be about Stieber, Maple, Dake, Ruth, and Wright the five undefeated wrestlers this season.

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Wasn't Bubba a World Champ? And a NCAA finalist, having lost to Metcalf? What makes Taylor better than Bubba?

 

Didn't Bubba lose to Metcalf a handful of times and couple pretty badly? Add to that the amount of losses Bubba had vs Taylor...

 

Bubba is one of my favorites but come on, Taylors career will be far more impressive.

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exactly. Bubba won, but Bubba wasn't/isn't the beter wrestler. Their body of work from that season demonstrates that.

 

Why again are you arguing Bubba wasn't the better wrestler? Because Bubba had a couple of losses on the season, I'll let you identify the paradox in your argument. I for sure saw nothing in that match that would lead me to believe DT on fact was better than Bubba absolutely nothing.

There's no paradox there. Taylor dismantled wrestlers Bubba struggled with. Bubba also had more than "a couple" losses that year. Taylor didn't wrestle his best that match but the body of the season shows who the better wrestler was.

 

As a thought experiment, imagine if Ruth froze up under the bright lights this year and got caught by Hamlin. Does that make Hamlin now and forever a better wrestler? of course not. It would just mean Hamlin took care of business when it mattered most.

 

So your argument is Taylor got caught? What was the score before he got pinned, did Taylor try a flying squirrel and miss? Maybe in Bubba two losses he got caught?

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Wasn't Bubba a World Champ? And a NCAA finalist, having lost to Metcalf? What makes Taylor better than Bubba?

 

Didn't Bubba lose to Metcalf a handful of times and couple pretty badly? Add to that the amount of losses Bubba had vs Taylor...

 

Bubba is one of my favorites but come on, Taylors career will be far more impressive.

 

I did not say Bubba is a better wrestler, or had a better career, I said at that point, how can you say Taylor was better. Remember Bubba was runner up as a true sophomore. Wow basically the same place Taylor would be at that point. Finally, after that point Bubba was an NCAA champ something Taylor was not, so again, how could you say Taylor was better, you may feel, or like to think so, but have zero supporting evidence at that point.

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Why again are you arguing Bubba wasn't the better wrestler? Because Bubba had a couple of losses on the season, I'll let you identify the paradox in your argument. I for sure saw nothing in that match that would lead me to believe DT on fact was better than Bubba absolutely nothing.

There's no paradox there. Taylor dismantled wrestlers Bubba struggled with. Bubba also had more than "a couple" losses that year. Taylor didn't wrestle his best that match but the body of the season shows who the better wrestler was.

 

As a thought experiment, imagine if Ruth froze up under the bright lights this year and got caught by Hamlin. Does that make Hamlin now and forever a better wrestler? of course not. It would just mean Hamlin took care of business when it mattered most.

 

So your argument is Taylor got caught? What was the score before he got pinned, did Taylor try a flying squirrel and miss? Maybe in Bubba two losses he got caught?

Bubba had 3 losses that season (not to mention 21 college losses prior to that season). If you're getting caught 3 times in 24 matches, well then you're not really getting caught at all.

 

After all was said and done Jenkins had 2 more losses and 17 fewer wins than Taylor that season. He also had easier competition and was less dominant in his wins. I love Taylor, but he choked in that match and he knows it.

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Caldwell doesn't belong in the conversation. Taylor beat him 10-0 this season. Mike Moreno from Iowa State beat him in thr Big 12 duals. Hamlin didn't win a title, very good wrestler though.

 

Realistically this season the argument can only be about Stieber, Maple, Dake, Ruth, and Wright the five undefeated wrestlers this season.

Who did Oliver lose to?

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Wasn't Bubba a World Champ? And a NCAA finalist, having lost to Metcalf? What makes Taylor better than Bubba?

 

Didn't Bubba lose to Metcalf a handful of times and couple pretty badly? Add to that the amount of losses Bubba had vs Taylor...

 

Bubba is one of my favorites but come on, Taylors career will be far more impressive.

When did bubba lose to Taylor as you suggest?

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Caldwell doesn't belong in the conversation. Taylor beat him 10-0 this season. Mike Moreno from Iowa State beat him in thr Big 12 duals. Hamlin didn't win a title, very good wrestler though.

 

Realistically this season the argument can only be about Stieber, Maple, Dake, Ruth, and Wright the five undefeated wrestlers this season.

If you're referring to OCGrappler's post. I think he's just doing a p4p comparison of 184 and 165. I think it's putting Caldwell above Hamlin is an arguable position. Caldwell has done more with his career than Hamlin had through 3 years. He had a couple bad matches this year, but Hamlin had some chinks in his armor as well (especially if you count his default at EIWA's as a loss).

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Wasn't Bubba a World Champ? And a NCAA finalist, having lost to Metcalf? What makes Taylor better than Bubba?

 

Didn't Bubba lose to Metcalf a handful of times and couple pretty badly? Add to that the amount of losses Bubba had vs Taylor...

 

Bubba is one of my favorites but come on, Taylors career will be far more impressive.

When did bubba lose to Taylor as you suggest?

He didn't suggest that. He is saying Bubba has lost more than Taylor. 21 times more to be exact. David already has significantly more career wins than Bubba by the way, and still has another year to pile them up.

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Mr. Dake has amazing balance and strength but what he lacks is speed and at the next level we'll see...Ed Ruth has amazing balance, strength and SPEED...P4P if you throw in conditioning ED RUUUUTTTTTHHHHH would have fun with...Hurry January!!!

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DT could end up with more losses in the finals of NCAA, than any of the other combined events of the year.

A sad and extremely likely scenario.

 

I wonder how many wrestlers that also meet that criteria. Gable is the only one off the top of my head.

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I would be shocked if Bubba did not think he was better than DT that year. He believed it along with about 10 other people in Philly(not even all of his family members) but he absolutely believed he could win. Who cares what they do against other opponents?? That is why Dake gets criticized? Now, I believe that Rohn was not better than Lambrecht, but there was nothing that I saw that said that Taylor was better than Jenkins.

 

ps. And even if he did think Taylor was better(which I don't buy for a second), who would you rather be in a bar; The better wrestler Taylor or the NCAA Champ Bubba J?!!

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I would be shocked if Bubba did not think he was better than DT that year. He believed it along with about 10 other people in Philly(not even all of his family members) but he absolutely believed he could win. Who cares what they do against other opponents?? That is why Dake gets criticized? Now, I believe that Rohn was not better than Lambrecht, but there was nothing that I saw that said that Taylor was better than Jenkins.

 

ps. And even if he did think Taylor was better(which I don't buy for a second), who would you rather be in a bar; The better wrestler Taylor or the NCAA Champ Bubba J?!!

"BUBBA JENKINS: A lot of luck. I heard a quote it's better to be lucky than it is to be good. And I can tell you right now they should call me Lucky instead of Bubba. Because I saw something. I looked at it. And I just got lucky."

 

Believe you can win does not mean you believe your better. I've gone into a ton of matches knowing that I was not as good a wrestler as my opponent, but that I could win if I did what needed to be done.

 

I'm not trying to put down Bubba at all. He's a great wrestler and I was cheering for him in that match.

 

As for who I'd rather be, you're damn right I'd rather be lucky than good as well.

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