Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
OCGrappler

Cael possibly "better" but Dake more accomplished

Recommended Posts

When comparing wrestlers in the four-years-of-eligiblity era, I think the top three have to be:

 

Cael Sanderson - 4x champ - 159-0

Kyle Dake - 4x champ - 132-4

Pat Smith - 4x champ - 121-6-2

 

After that, it gets more dicey, but I think you have to consider names like S. Abas, Tom Brands, J. Smith, Kemp, McIlravy, Williams, M. Schultz, Askren, Angle, and E. Banach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Denny, I am with you. I don't remember when you coined the "Professor" term, but it stuck and was most appropriate. Watching him wrestle truly was an act of art. He was quick, slick, strong, and could score from any position. There will never be another Cael Sanderson. Four titles, Four OW's, and Three Hodges coupled with an undefeated official record is nothing to sneeze at. Praising the accomplishments of both Kyle Dake and Professor Cael doesn't mean we have to denigrate the other. We may see another 4-timer, but I doubt we will see another 4 times in 4 weights, and I am certain we will never see another Cael.

 

Thanks.

 

I remember watching that 1st finals bout. Cael was literally 'out slickin' Eggum (in the first of four titles). The camara panned to the seats. There we all could see Cael's brother and mother. His brother could be heard to say " "woe he is doing it the same....treating that stud the same way."

 

As for the "The Professor" nickname....I believe that I began posting that-the summer after he beat Eggum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OCG said it well.

 

And I might add that had Cael wrestled a varsity schedule as a true freshman (instead of open tournaments) he might have had some losses the same way Pat Smith did (who DID wrestle varsity as a true freshman).

----

 

Excellent point, and that is why the RS yr or lack of it has to be a consideration when talking about all time greats.

 

A RS year is extremely valuable... look what it did for Taylor.

 

To come out of HS and win an ncaa title as a tr fr is extremely rare. We'll never know, but I have doubts Cael would've won as a true fr. We do know that he lost a match that season to Jenn, and we do know, despite entering open competitions, he didn't face the truly elite guys during his true fr year.

No, a redshirt year, or lack thereof, doesn't have to be a consideration when talking about the all time greats. Folks can choose to use that as part of their personal criteria if they like, but I've never seen it held against an athlete - except for Sanderson. I suspect some do so only because they're already biased against him. (Remember the many posts about "Bael" and the obvious animosity toward him for reviving the dormant Penn State program.)

 

Similar to GoNotQuietly's comment about a person valuing one wrestling style over another, the criteria each person uses in determining who's the greatest is based on their personal value system. Historically, the greatest athletes have been measured, in large part, by their records. Inasmuch as the primary object of wrestling is to win every time one steps on the mat, and because this feat is so rarely accomplished in the modern era, a perfect record is perhaps the most difficult athletic achievement in the sport. (Four titles at four different weights may be a rarer accomplishment, but it's not purely an athletic achievement. Athletes, particularly college-age ones, have different maturation rates that play a role in whether one would even be in such a situation.)

 

Sanderson clearly ranks ahead of Dake by all of the traditional measures. He not only had a better record, he had a perfect one. He also won in a more dominating fashion than Dake. During their respective four years of wrestling at the NCAAs, Sanderson was named the the most outstanding wrestler four times to Dake's once. And, finally, Sanderson has won the Hodge Trophy an unprecedented three times to Dake's (likely) once. (That's seven major awards based on being the top collegiate wrestler for Sanderson, compared to two for Dake.)

 

Kyle Dake is a great champion and representative of college wrestling - and he has earned his way into an elite club in college wrestling history. However, placing a higher value on things other than his record and wrestling accomplishments doesn't cause him to surpass Sanderson on the list of all-time greats. That's not to say those other factors aren't impressive, because they indeed are. Taken together with his record and accomplishments, however, they ultimately don't place him as high as Sanderson on the list of all-time greats. (JMHO)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you want to have a "pound for pound" debate between Dake and Cael, and you want to take Cael, I can't argue with you. Cael was just so dominant, it's hard to go against that. (Though in fairness, Taylor was equally dominant when he wasn't wrestling Dake.)

 

But at the end of the day, it is clear that Dake wrestled tougher competiton. 3 of the 4 guys that Dake beat in the finals were NCAA champs, that is nuts. The LEAST accomplished guy that Dake beat was a 2x finalist, so basically a push with the MOST accomplished guy that Cael beat. There is the 4 weight classes. There is the lack of redshirt, which is a huge difference. I have a hard time calling Cael "undefeated" when he did lose a folkstyle match his freshman year. That match happened, we can't pretend that it didn't because he was a redshirt ...something Dake never did.

 

To be considered a better overall wrestler than Cael for his entire career, Dake needs a world level gold in the mantle piece. But it is fair to call Dake the more accomplished college wrestler. 4 titles without a redshirt over 3 NCAA champs trumps undefeated but a loss during the redshirt year and no finals wins against NCAA champs.

Let's also not forget that Cael made a World Team while in college.

The truth is, while Taylor won't have the accomplishments quite to officially say it, IMO he is one of the 10 best college wrestlers of all time. And Dake beat him 4 times in less than a year. Cael may be "better" than Dake, I'm not sure. But Dake's accomplishment is more impressive when you factor in the opponents and redshirt situation.

 

Don't forget that Cael made a World Team while still in college.

------

 

And to be thorough, let's note that to make that World team while in college, Cael had to beat Eggum in the finals.

 

To make the World team after his jr year, Dake would've had to beat the reigning World gold medalist Jordan

Burroughs.

 

True, but Dake didn't lose to Burroughs while trying to make the team, he lost to Paulson. Eggum went on to win the World silver medal after Cael beat him to make the team. If Dake had lost to Burroughs, then that would be a very important point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

based purely on who was in the bracket...

 

Smith: 90Schleicher, Navy, Steve hamilton 3xAA

91 Tom Ryan Iowa

92 Ray Miller ASU 4xAA,champ

94 Bormet Mich 2x AA

mollica was in there one year or two...be beat mark branch who but for a bad knee might have beena 3 x champ, as it was he was a 4x finalist, as walter and hovan

 

Sanderson: 99 Eggum 3x AA, Vering 3xAA champ,

00 Jones 3x AA(clark beat jones 17-0 in 1st period..so..) greenfield 2x aa, rohn

01 cormier 1x aa, Hrovat 3x aa, Hahn

02 trenge 2x RU

munoz is in there too somewhere

 

Dake: 2010 Marion, Hump, Mike Thorn, nauman bailey

11: Tank, Chamberlain, Jamal Parks, Sanjaa

12 St John, Welch, fleming green, alton

13 Taylor, cAldwell

 

a case could be made for dake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are the Facts.

 

-Cael never lost

 

-Dake lost 4 times

 

And it pretty much ends there...

 

**For the sake of debate. Dakes biggest hype of his accomplishment is, "winning the title in four different weight classes."

 

In Dakes case he talks about how going up each year was the BIGGEST motivational factor for him.

 

As a former 3 style wrestler through college, it is not easy to defend a weight class. You put an enormous amount of strain on your body, but even more so mentally through weight cutting, through on and off season. Even though I compliment Dakes ability to think outside the box, and not allow himself fall victim to poor coaching to "stay in the same weight", this was actually a key component to him being able to win 4. Young adults continue growing until the age of 23-25 even. He kept the edge through 4 titles by allowing room for physical growth and eliminated deprivation, in addition to maintaining mental and psychological health.

 

With that said, it is harder to win 4 titles in the same weight, than it is to go up a little every year.

Also he was in the lighter/middle weights which allowed this without such big jumps and demand for increased strength gains. Example: Cael going 184-197 = 13 pound jump, wheres as Dake incrementally increased 8/lbs per season 3 times. With that said we are going to begin to see alot of Freshman/Sophmores adopting this same strategy.

 

On another note: Dake is a very well rounded, determined, young, and motivated kid. From listening to him speak, I don't see the depth that we've seen from alot of the past greats, but his accomplishments are great for the sport. If I were his parent/mentor I would get him involved up at Cornell in some public speaking/leadership classes.

 

If you're looking for someone to "compare" to sanderson, they would have to.

 

A. Go undefeated in college &

B. Win an Olympic Gold Medal

 

On an overall level as to compare Sanderson/Gable etc, they would then have to go on for example where Sanderson has won 3 of 4 National Titles (he's just getting started).

 

It's unlikely any of us will ever see this while were alive. But it could....? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys....Cael lost. Not freestyle, not offseason. He lost in-season to a college wrestler while he was at Iowa State. It happened. If you want to say Cael is better than Dake, you have every right. But don't act like that match didn't happen just because he was red shirting, something Dake never did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this in the other Dake - Cael thread and thought I would repost it here:

 

In wrestling, the redshirt is merely an accounting trick.

 

Does any college wrestler have an official college win over Cael or Over Dake? The answer is yes to both. Does Cael have an official loss? No. Redshirts can impact the seasons and careers of other college wrestlers (their matches are factored into NCAA qualification), however, the redshirt has no risk and can actually manipulate the seasons and qualifications of others without penalty (they are not considered attached collegiates). This is my biggest issue with the rules.

 

Looking at their first season, Dake had two losses wrestling as a starter against other team's starters in duals and wrestling a top flight schedule that included events like Vegas and the National Duals. Cael wrestled mainly a regional open schedule. The typical starter wrestles in no more than two opens a year leaving the bulk of the entrants being backups and redshirts (or non-D1 wrestlers).

 

Was Cael's story of being undefeated great for the promotion of the sport? Yes. Did it make his brand that has allowed him to easily recruit? Yes. Was he a better collegiate than Dake? Maybe, or maybe not. It is tough when you have Taylor who seems to be as dominant as Cael was but yet Dake just finds ways to beat everyone.

 

Does offense win championships or does defense win championships? That seems to be the question. (Mobile)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guys....Cael lost. Not freestyle, not offseason. He lost in-season to a college wrestler while he was at Iowa State. It happened. If you want to say Cael is better than Dake, you have every right. But don't act like that match didn't happen just because he was red shirting, something Dake never did.

Pathetic how suddenly people look to count what happens in a redshirt season so much. How many wins did he have that year?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post. Cael may very well have been the better college wrestler. But it isnt as simple as him being undefeated, because he wasnt. Either way,records dont tell the whole story. Does anyone think that Taylor is worse than every wrestler with less than 3 losses this season? I certainly do not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget that Cael made a World Team while still in college.

------

 

And to be thorough, let's note that to make that World team while in college, Cael had to beat Eggum in the finals.

 

To make the World team after his jr year, Dake would've had to beat the reigning World gold medalist Jordan

Burroughs.

 

True, but Dake didn't lose to Burroughs while trying to make the team, he lost to Paulson. Eggum went on to win the World silver medal after Cael beat him to make the team. If Dake had lost to Burroughs, then that would be a very important point.

 

---

 

Both Paulsons were pretty accomplished FS wrestlers but you are correct, Dake didn't make it to Burroughs (yet). Also, I didn't realize that Eggum would be a World silver medalist, making Cael's accomplishment impressive. Point taken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good post. Cael may very well have been the better college wrestler. But it isnt as simple as him being undefeated, because he wasnt. Either way,records dont tell the whole story. Does anyone think that Taylor is worse than every wrestler with less than 3 losses this season? I certainly do not.

NO. He was undefeated in NCAA competition. The funny part is that this was always common knowledge. As long as I've been on message boards and just talked wrestling with people, Cael Sanderson's name has always been synonymous with perfection because he had a perfect record. Suddenly now that Dake won 4, but had blemishes on his record, people need to dig into a RS year for Cael to bring his accomplishment down somehow? Pathetic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are discussing a guy that redshirted vs someone that did not, the redshirt year has to be in the discussion. We aren't talking about freestyle or exhibition or offseason. We are talking about a real college match and a real loss. More to the point, could Cael have won 4 without a redshirt like Dake did? I don't think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you are discussing a guy that redshirted vs someone that did not, the redshirt year has to be in the discussion. We aren't talking about freestyle or exhibition or offseason. We are talking about a real college match and a real loss. More to the point, could Cael have won 4 without a redshirt like Dake did? I don't think so.

 

We're not talking about exhibition, but I'm sure Taylor's exhibition loss counts, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you are discussing a guy that redshirted vs someone that did not, the redshirt year has to be in the discussion. We aren't talking about freestyle or exhibition or offseason. We are talking about a real college match and a real loss. More to the point, could Cael have won 4 without a redshirt like Dake did? I don't think so.

 

That's crazy. Odds are completely stacked against you. 179-0

But yet you don't think so?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Romesone - I think it has been pretty clear over the years in my posts that I am not a fan of the planned redshirt. You make the point that most wrestling fans know Cael as not being defeated in college and that is technically accurate, in the same way that Taylor was technically undefeated when entering the Southern Scuffle this season. If Dake and Taylor wouldn't have wrestled in the Scuffle you can bet ESPN and 'most' wrestling fans would be talking about the two undefeated wrestlers meeting. Though most fans would be thought wrong by those that closely follow the sport. (Mobile)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good post. Cael may very well have been the better college wrestler. But it isnt as simple as him being undefeated, because he wasnt. Either way,records dont tell the whole story. Does anyone think that Taylor is worse than every wrestler with less than 3 losses this season? I certainly do not.

 

than what?? Watch them wrestle and make it a matter of opinion?? riiight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Romesone - I think it has been pretty clear over the years in my posts that I am not a fan of the planned redshirt. You make the point that most wrestling fans know Cael as not being defeated in college and that is technically accurate, in the same way that Taylor was technically undefeated when entering the Southern Scuffle this season. If Dake and Taylor wouldn't have wrestled in the Scuffle you can bet ESPN and 'most' wrestling fans would be talking about the two undefeated wrestlers meeting. Though most fans would be thought wrong by those that closely follow the sport. (Mobile)

 

Well even if you count the Red-Shirt year as a Loss, (which it's not). Dake still lost 3 times more than Cael... I don't even understand the point of this argument?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Romesone - I think it has been pretty clear over the years in my posts that I am not a fan of the planned redshirt. You make the point that most wrestling fans know Cael as not being defeated in college and that is technically accurate, in the same way that Taylor was technically undefeated when entering the Southern Scuffle this season. If Dake and Taylor wouldn't have wrestled in the Scuffle you can bet ESPN and 'most' wrestling fans would be talking about the two undefeated wrestlers meeting. Though most fans would be thought wrong by those that closely follow the sport. (Mobile)

 

Well even if you count the Red-Shirt year as a Loss, (which it's not). Dake still lost 3 times more than Cael... I don't even understand the point of this argument?

 

 

It is strange how people starting bringing this up now like nobody knew about it before. Cael knew it was a red shirt year and his opponents knew it was a red shirt year.

 

IF all these matches were going to count on his record I believe he would approached them differently. Even knowing his wins/losses wouldn't be counting on his NCAA record he still only lost ONCE.

 

Using that RS match to say he wasn't "really" undefeated is like counting practice room matches on someones record.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Side note: who was at Cael's weight at ISU when he redshirted? If Cael was so great (which he was) why did he redshirt? Did they just redshirt everyone? With only 9.9 it is a lot to have one scholarship on the bench. In Taylor's case we know, although he was a All-American and dominated a lot of guys in his redshirt season, he was third in the depth chart at 157 when the season started (Cyler and Bubba). (Mobile)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Side note: who was at Cael's weight at ISU when he redshirted? If Cael was so great (which he was) why did he redshirt? Did they just redshirt everyone? With only 9.9 it is a lot to have one scholarship on the bench. In Taylor's case we know, although he was a All-American and dominated a lot of guys in his redshirt season, he was third in the depth chart at 157 when the season started (Cyler and Bubba). (Mobile)

 

Do you realize that most of the decision making is not the student athletes? There are coaches for good reason. They are the shot callers. I'm sure Cael would have loved to compete without a RS if he had the choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Losing to a guy in the finals of a legitimate college tourney is like losing in the practice room? Cael was in one of his first tourney finals as a freshman but he didn't try because he was thinking of his official record? Please. A tourney final when you are a freshman is a bigger match than some meaningless lopsided dual against Binghamton when you are already an NCAA champ.

 

How does the finals of the UNI tourney matter less than a dual your team won by 30?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...