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Cael possibly "better" but Dake more accomplished

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Huskyhero133 - your second paragraph is exactly why I have an issue with redshirt matches counting against non-redshirts. Paul Jenn Officially has a win over Cael Sanderson while Cael does not 'officially'' have a loss to Jenn. At the same time, with the way we determine qualifications for nationals redshirts could have big wins and headscratching losses all that effect who gets in to the NCAA championships based on if they felt like showing up or if they wanted to 'try something new'.

 

The reality is that if we don't have the redshirt matches count for the starter then there would be no reason to waste matches (and risk injury) wrestling in events that allow redshirts to enter. Additionally, very few athletes are ready to compete as freshmen so the chances of doing away with the redshirt wouldn't gain a lot of support.

 

The reality is that people want to compare these two athletes who both won four championships and one wrestler did it right out of the gate and the other took a year wrestling college matches that counted for the events and their opponents but not for them. How do we measue a career? Does a career matter when determining who was the best all time college wrestler? Does Burroughs get mentioned due to his domination as a senior, or is a whole body of work over a career needed?

 

 

Yes, these are all academic questions but I have never liked the rules as they pertain to redshirting.

(Mobile)

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Side note: who was at Cael's weight at ISU when he redshirted? If Cael was so great (which he was) why did he redshirt? Did they just redshirt everyone? With only 9.9 it is a lot to have one scholarship on the bench. In Taylor's case we know, although he was a All-American and dominated a lot of guys in his redshirt season, he was third in the depth chart at 157 when the season started (Cyler and Bubba). (Mobile)

 

Do you realize that most of the decision making is not the student athletes? There are coaches for good reason. They are the shot callers. I'm sure Cael would have loved to compete without a RS if he had the choice.

 

That was a sincere question. I didn't feel like trying to look it up but I honestly was wondering if maybe ISU had a potential AA or National Champ that year. I do know a lot of programs have a policy where they redshirt.

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Side note: who was at Cael's weight at ISU when he redshirted? If Cael was so great (which he was) why did he redshirt? Did they just redshirt everyone? With only 9.9 it is a lot to have one scholarship on the bench. In Taylor's case we know, although he was a All-American and dominated a lot of guys in his redshirt season, he was third in the depth chart at 157 when the season started (Cyler and Bubba). (Mobile)

 

Do you realize that most of the decision making is not the student athletes? There are coaches for good reason. They are the shot callers. I'm sure Cael would have loved to compete without a RS if he had the choice.

 

That was a sincere question. I didn't feel like trying to look it up but I honestly was wondering if maybe ISU had a potential AA or National Champ that year. I do know a lot of programs have a policy where they redshirt.

 

My bad if I came off sorta dickish, definitely not my intentions. But anyhow, it really wasn't his decision.

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Jeeez,

 

This can be soo simple, yet we do try to make things complicated.

 

4 in 5

 

NCAA will allow a total of 4 years of eligibility* for:

 

(1) individual(s) continuity of matriculation.

(2) fair and consistent records for each student athlete.

 

 

* Redshirt year not included

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Denny,

I have the utmost respect for you and your career. Did you ever wrestle in a tournament final where you felt that the match "didn't count"? If your finals opponent in the midlands was a redshirting freshman, would that have meant the match didn't count?

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no redshirt is VERY big in this discussion. Would Cael have won as a true freshman? Not to mention how many losses he may have had wrestling a full varsity schedule.

They are both absolutely GREAT. With no rs my opinion is DAKE #1.I say Cael has several losses if he wrestles as a tf, again my opinion, backed up by the Jenn loss who didn't aa.

Those that throw out this part of the discussion do so simply to favor Cael.

As a coach Cael sits in a much stronger position (he is in PA after all) than Gable had coming in.... It will be interesting to see what he can do with that position over time..... so far......damn good!

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Denny,

I have the utmost respect for you and your career. Did you ever wrestle in a tournament final where you felt that the match "didn't count"? If your finals opponent in the midlands was a redshirting freshman, would that have meant the match didn't count?

 

For the guy not in his RS year then that finals match counts as much as any other big tourney finals match. For the RS freshman however it does not count on his official record win or lose, those are the rules.

 

Noone said that he didn't try like you or I or anyone tries to come out on top of any takedown or scramble in live situation, match or practice.

 

The fact is that he did know before hand that those matches wouldn't count on his official record, not saying that means he didn't try but it does mean that the result MAY have been different if he thought red-shirt matches counted in the eyes of the record books.

 

We can't change the rules years after the fact, if we want to do away with the red shirt or start making the official records include redshirt matches then i'm sure there is a way to petition the rules committee to make it so.

 

Not counting the matches in the RS year is not "simply" what people try to do to favor Cael, it is the agreed up rules that Cael was actually competing under. To say that one loss during a RS year (that he KNEW before hand didn't count) over a 5 year campaign is the same as 4 losses over 4 doesn't make sense to me.

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Not counting the matches in the RS year is not "simply" what people try to do to favor Cael, it is the agreed up rules that Cael was actually competing under. To say that one loss during a RS year (that he KNEW before hand didn't count) over a 5 year campaign is the same as 4 losses over 4 doesn't make sense to me.

 

You misunderstand my point. I didn't say count the rs matches. I SAID throwing out the fact that Dake didn't rs where Cael did is VERY big in the discussion about who may be TGOAT.

 

Also the "he knew before hand it didn't count"......makes me think you didn't wrestle. To wrestlers.....they ALL count

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Denny,

I have the utmost respect for you and your career. Did you ever wrestle in a tournament final where you felt that the match "didn't count"? If your finals opponent in the midlands was a redshirting freshman, would that have meant the match didn't count?

 

I think that you are asking me if I wrestled a RS freshman did it count -or- in my minds eye ...it did not count ?

 

Two tourneys that come to mind :

 

My Midlands finals opponent was a Michigan senior, and a Big 10 tourney runner-up that year.

 

Another was the Great Plaines Open (a big time tourney of the time). My opponent in the finals was one of Myron's boys at Okie St. First or second in the Big 8's.

 

OC...Neither of those two were redshirting. Nor was I. So, it was counted.

Had they been redshirting--- as in not eligible-- then I would have only (and I did) count it as big time win in my own mind.

 

Those two tourneys came to mind tonight. I don't recall all of the details of some of my wrestling days. Somehow, those have hung out in my memory bank. Maybe because I met the Baron Von Rashke at that Great Plains...in Lincoln, Neb.

As VAK knows well, the Baron is(was) actually Jim Rashke , the Nebraska

hwt at that time. We did not wrestle (me at 191....he a big hwt). We just hung out for that wk-end of the tourney.

 

I hope that I nailed it for you ?

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Out of curiosity -- How old is Kyle Dake?

 

Kyle was born on February 2, 1991. He is 22. For comparison's sake, Cael Sanderson was also 22 when he won his fourth title.

 

Comparing Dake to today's 165's, Tyler Caldwell was born Nov. 20, 1989. Dake is a year younger than Caldwell. David Taylor was born December 5, 1992, so that makes Dake nearly two years older than Taylor.

 

Draw your own conclusions as to how this enters into the whole rs/non rs debate.

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I think you need to check your dates. Are you honestly saying that Taylor was competing in Juniors as a sophomore yet graduated HS when he was 16? Lol.

 

Cael was older than Dake when they won their 4th titles. (or every title for that matter)

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At the end of their careers, it's pretty tough to distinguish. Different styles but equal domination and greatness.

 

However, for my money, I watched the careers of both and if you are talking all 4 years of competition, Cael did it like no other, the reason why he's 159-0.

 

But to compare is splitting hairs and both are surely in the conversation of the greatest we'll ever see.

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Out of curiosity -- How old is Kyle Dake?

 

Kyle was born on February 2, 1991. He is 22. For comparison's sake, Cael Sanderson was also 22 when he won his fourth title.

 

Comparing Dake to today's 165's, Tyler Caldwell was born Nov. 20, 1989. Dake is a year younger than Caldwell. David Taylor was born December 5, 1992, so that makes Dake nearly two years older than Taylor.

 

Draw your own conclusions as to how this enters into the whole rs/non rs debate.

 

If you are right about Taylor's birthdate, he is one of the best wrestlers of all time. But you aren't and he isn't.

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There is no chance Taylor graduated HS at 16. If his birthday is December, it is probably 1990...making him older than Dake. Which is irrelevant. The argument about Cael's redshirt isn't about him being a little older than Dake. It is about the extra year of college training and the loss in the finals of a college tourney to a college wrestler while in college himself.

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Per the bios from Fargo in 2007, his birthday is Dec 1990. So he is a few months older than Dake. Not a big deal either way. Dake was 19 when he won his first NCAA title, Taylor was 21.

 

You can name 2 things Dake did that Cael didn't. You could name about 5 things Cael did that Dake didn't. 2 things that immediately come to mind are his pure domination and never been beaten. Look through all the years of wrestling and the W/L records, and RS has never been counted. Cael is the only one this counts for all the sudden. Outside of arguing Dake/Sanderson, you'll be hard pressed to ever see that mentioned. Only by those who wish to argue Dakes feat is greater.

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I found the link. Ironically to this site.

 

Taylor's Bio from an article by USAWrestling and syndicated to TheMat.com last April:

 

DAVID TAYLOR, St. Paris, Ohio (Nittany Lion WC)

Wildcard selection for Olympic Trials… Second in 2008 and 2010 FILA Junior World Team Trials… Third in 2010 FILA Junior Nationals… 2010 University Nationals champion… Eighth in 2007 FILA Junior World Championships… 2007 Junior Nationals champion in both styles… 2006 Cadet Nationals champion in both styles… 2005 Cadet Nationals champion in freestyle and second in Greco-Roman… 2005 FILA Cadet Nationals champion in both styles… 2012 NCAA Champion for Penn State… 2012 Dan Hodge Trophy winner as nation’s top college wrestler… Second in 2011 NCAA Championships… Four-time Ohio state high school champion… College: Penn State… High School: St. Paris, Ohio (St. Paris Graham)… Born: December 5, 1992… Age: 19

 

http://www.themat.com/section.php?section_id=3&page=showarticle&ArticleID=24956

 

 

I never gave the birthdate all that much thought. I just presumed it to be correct.

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Out of curiosity -- How old is Kyle Dake?

 

Kyle was born on February 2, 1991. He is 22. For comparison's sake, Cael Sanderson was also 22 when he won his fourth title.

 

Comparing Dake to today's 165's, Tyler Caldwell was born Nov. 20, 1989. Dake is a year younger than Caldwell. David Taylor was born December 5, 1992, so that makes Dake nearly two years older than Taylor.

 

Draw your own conclusions as to how this enters into the whole rs/non rs debate.

Sorry, Taylor did not graduate high school two years early.

 

I know for a fact he was born in December of 1990.

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