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Housebuye

Ohio State is vastly underrated

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27 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

Ira Lubert dropped to 190 last couple of bouts his senior year for PSU 1973.  I don't know about better wrestling-wise. He was a decent sized HWT. I'm sure he lost well over 50 pounds. I remember a few of us fans saying it might not have improved his wrestling record but was likely the best thing for his health.

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36 minutes ago, nhs67 said:125-Malik was not undersized this year.  He was out-toughed. Redshirt him, make him sign up in a MMA gym to gain some grit, or something... and let one of the Koontz bang this year.  The Koontz may not have the elite skillsets that some top recruits have, but they'll give 215% every time they step on the mat and chances are they won't be out-toughed.

133-He has about a good 30 seconds then he hits a wall.  He needs to redshirt and go 141, imho.  Let the other Koontz man this spot.

157-Kinner has to add a lot of muscle to be effective here at a AA level.  He was just absolutely horsed against Peyton Robb.  You don't think 'CLYDESDALE' when you think of Peyton Robb.

As of today, just looking at Wrestlestat at their roster, this is my reaction as to what I believe puts out their nominally best lineup:

125-Koontz
133-Koontz
*141/149-Echemendia/Kinner
*157-Sasso
**165-Smith
**174-Romero
**184-Jordan
***197-Singletary
****285-Orndorff
*I don't think you could go wrong with either of these toons at either weights.  Sasso at 157 makes much more sense for the team, and individually.  I just don't see him beating Johnny D at all, whereas 157 doesn't have any of those transcendent toons(fight me).
**Kharchla will take whatever weight he chooses between 165-184.  He will effect where other peeps go.  Smith, Romero, and Jordan will be wrestling off for two spots between 165-184.  There is also Hubbard to consider in that range, as well.  The guy did beat Amine in a more convincing fashion than Kharchla did.
***I'm still not sold that Hoffman isn't a legit prospect and would not be surprised the least if he somehow works his way into the lineup at 197 at some point.  Especially since we've never seen Singletary at 197 in college, and he is quite a beefcake.
****Not sold that Orndorff has the spot by the end of the season.  Singletary could have a $HlT cut and decide on going back up, Traub could make a developmental leap and hold him off, even Boykin could pose him problems.  They could have four legitimate D1 type starters at 285 by the end of the year.

Obviously the potential that Malik and Jordan add at 125 and 133 make their tournament peak performances possibly better, but the consistency I think we'll get in the twins will have a better team impact for duals.  I don't see them getting blown away often there, even if out-slicked.  That starts the duals out better than two dominant techfall losses.

Malik was absolutely undersized this past year. He didn’t cut to make 125. 
  
I’ve been skeptical about Decatur’s folkstyle success forever and still am, but he has the work ethic and ability to be AA level. Not sure if he gets there though. A redshirt might be a great idea. 
  
peyton Robb is known for horsing everyone. It was also widely known that he had a tough cut, and will very likely move up this year. He couldn’t last year because there was a title contender in the lineup at 165. 
  
I agree on the 197 and hvwt points. Is actually prefer Singletary at hvwt personally. I think he is 80% to AA at hvwt and maybe 25% at 197 (lots of unknowns though)

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I thought Robb  might be a candidate to move up, too. but sounds like he'll be at 57 for quite a while. certainly this season. 

nebraska has a bunch of guys at 41/49/57 and no one quite big enough to get in to 65. Lovett/Kevon/Hardy/Condomitti/Robb

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

Malik was absolutely undersized this past year. He didn’t cut to make 125. 
  
I’ve been skeptical about Decatur’s folkstyle success forever and still am, but he has the work ethic and ability to be AA level. Not sure if he gets there though. A redshirt might be a great idea. 
  
peyton Robb is known for horsing everyone. It was also widely known that he had a tough cut, and will very likely move up this year. He couldn’t last year because there was a title contender in the lineup at 165. 
  
I agree on the 197 and hvwt points. Is actually prefer Singletary at hvwt personally. I think he is 80% to AA at hvwt and maybe 25% at 197 (lots of unknowns though)

I didn't think he was horsing folks at B1Gs or Cliff Keen.  Against Kinner he looked at least a weight class larger and it was obvious. Obviously he was/is strong, but not world beater raw power.  I remember watching the MSU and UofM duals as well and I didn't get the feeling he was horsing Lewan or Tucker.  I didn't watch all his matches, though, and I've not followed him on a personal level, so I'll have to defer to you.

Also, Malik did cut to make 125 this year.  Ryan went on record a few times saying that he would not be undersized.  Strength was a factor in many matches, however it was due to lack of strength, and not lack of size.

Also hear me out on this one.  What do you(or anyone else) say to this:

165-IF Kharchla beats Smith
174-Then IF Smith beats Romero
184-Romero/Jordan wrestle off.
197-Loser of Romero/Jordan VS Hoffman for 197.  Does anyone think Jordan would be okay at 197?  Same question for Romero, if it comes to it(Rocky did beat Romero at 174 last year while he was sucking weight).  While Hoffman is rather short, I still think he's going to do just fine, if/when given the opportunity.

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6 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I didn't think he was horsing folks at B1Gs or Cliff Keen.  Against Kinner he looked at least a weight class larger and it was obvious. Obviously he was/is strong, but not world beater raw power.  I remember watching the MSU and UofM duals as well and I didn't get the feeling he was horsing Lewan or Tucker.  I didn't watch all his matches, though, and I've not followed him on a personal level, so I'll have to defer to you.

Also, Malik did cut to make 125 this year.  Ryan went on record a few times saying that he would not be undersized.  Strength was a factor in many matches, however it was due to lack of strength, and not lack of size.

Also hear me out on this one.  What do you(or anyone else) say to this:

165-IF Kharchla beats Smith
174-Then IF Smith beats Romero
184-Romero/Jordan wrestle off.
197-Loser of Romero/Jordan VS Hoffman for 197.  Does anyone think Jordan would be okay at 197?  Same question for Romero, if it comes to it(Rocky did beat Romero at 174 last year while he was sucking weight).  While Hoffman is rather short, I still think he's going to do just fine, if/when given the opportunity.

I think 165,174, 184 will be between Smith, Karchla, Romero, and Rocky and 197 will be between Singletary and Hoffman.   Heavyweight will likely be Orndorff then Traub so pretty good depth from 165 up.  Of those four I think Karchla is the best and Romero the next best.  I always thought Karchla would be a career 165 because of his height but I'm hearing he is big and will be 174.  I had Romero top four at 174 but recent social media hugeness suggests he could go up and challenge Rocky at 184.   I would favor Romero in the match up with Jordan but am unsure how he matches up with top guys at 184.  It would probably be best for the lineup if Sasso was at 157 and some combination of Echemendia/Kinner were 141/149.  With Malik it's not an either or situation.  He is a little small, needs to finish his low level attacks quicker, and gets rode like a Harley but he's lightening quick and shows flashes of brilliance on his feet.  I assume they're working to improve on deficits.  Jordan Decatur is outstanding on his feet and struggled on the mat and with conditioning as many thought he would making the adjustment to college.  I've heard the talk of 141 but with Echemendia, Kinner, D'Emilio I think JD's chance to be a starter of tOSU is a 133.  

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On 7/3/2020 at 9:04 AM, balanceseeker said:

Both statements you made are inaccurate.  Koontz wrestled at Cliff Keen and beat 2 seeded guys to make the semis.  Jarret Trombley of NC State ended up 20-9 and an NCAA qualifyer last year.  Josh Kramer of Arizona State was ranked in the top 15 at one point last year and had a decent seed at Vegas.  His performance fell off a bit at the end of the year (he lost to Decatur by a similar score that he lost to Koontz) but still a legit starter.  Regarding 285's cutting to 197 the only person I remember doing this is Kevin Snyder, and he performed slightly better at 197, but it was understood that he was depth at either weight.  The Bucks have done the opposite and attempted to grow 197's into mobile Heavyweights on numerous occasion.  Bergman, Corey Morrison, and Pete Capone were all examples of this with Bergman being the most successful obviously.

 Not sure how you think you contradicted my point but everyone of those guys did much better at heavyweight than at 197, as did Kyle snyder.  I didn’t say that they necessarily wrestled heavy weight first.  Corey Morrison was like three and 15 at 197 but a serviceable heavyweight.  I’m sure we all remember the performance of number one ranked 220 lb recruit Cody Gardner at 197.... yikes.  Although Bergman was an all American twice at 197 he had a much better season at heavyweight.

Kyle freaking Snyder lost to Nathan burak and kyven Garson at 197 a few months before winning worlds at 213... If that doesn’t make the point for you about Buckeye tweeners at 197 nothing will.

You’re correct that one of the koontz brothers squeaked out a few wins over some guys that barely qualified  for NCAA, But he also failed the place at two weak open tournaments taking very bad losses.  If they were better than the current guys they would’ve been starting this year- so I don’t see what’s going to change. I’d love to be wrong.  

Edited by Cradle1

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15 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

I don’t think so.  I think the answer is it’s literally never happened But there’s always an exception to the rule. And what’s really interesting is I could list literally dozens of guys over the years that have gone from 197 to heavyweight and had dramatically improved results. The most obvious and recent being Anthony Cassar and Derek white. 

Edited by Cradle1

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On 7/4/2020 at 10:16 AM, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

Ben Honis wrestled 285 his junior year (lost 197 to Darmstadt), going 3-4, then dropped to 197 his senior year and got 8th at NCAAs.  One could argue that he was never a "full-sized" 285, though.

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