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Housebuye

Ohio State is vastly underrated

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27 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

Ira Lubert dropped to 190 last couple of bouts his senior year for PSU 1973.  I don't know about better wrestling-wise. He was a decent sized HWT. I'm sure he lost well over 50 pounds. I remember a few of us fans saying it might not have improved his wrestling record but was likely the best thing for his health.

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36 minutes ago, nhs67 said:125-Malik was not undersized this year.  He was out-toughed. Redshirt him, make him sign up in a MMA gym to gain some grit, or something... and let one of the Koontz bang this year.  The Koontz may not have the elite skillsets that some top recruits have, but they'll give 215% every time they step on the mat and chances are they won't be out-toughed.

133-He has about a good 30 seconds then he hits a wall.  He needs to redshirt and go 141, imho.  Let the other Koontz man this spot.

157-Kinner has to add a lot of muscle to be effective here at a AA level.  He was just absolutely horsed against Peyton Robb.  You don't think 'CLYDESDALE' when you think of Peyton Robb.

As of today, just looking at Wrestlestat at their roster, this is my reaction as to what I believe puts out their nominally best lineup:

125-Koontz
133-Koontz
*141/149-Echemendia/Kinner
*157-Sasso
**165-Smith
**174-Romero
**184-Jordan
***197-Singletary
****285-Orndorff
*I don't think you could go wrong with either of these toons at either weights.  Sasso at 157 makes much more sense for the team, and individually.  I just don't see him beating Johnny D at all, whereas 157 doesn't have any of those transcendent toons(fight me).
**Kharchla will take whatever weight he chooses between 165-184.  He will effect where other peeps go.  Smith, Romero, and Jordan will be wrestling off for two spots between 165-184.  There is also Hubbard to consider in that range, as well.  The guy did beat Amine in a more convincing fashion than Kharchla did.
***I'm still not sold that Hoffman isn't a legit prospect and would not be surprised the least if he somehow works his way into the lineup at 197 at some point.  Especially since we've never seen Singletary at 197 in college, and he is quite a beefcake.
****Not sold that Orndorff has the spot by the end of the season.  Singletary could have a $HlT cut and decide on going back up, Traub could make a developmental leap and hold him off, even Boykin could pose him problems.  They could have four legitimate D1 type starters at 285 by the end of the year.

Obviously the potential that Malik and Jordan add at 125 and 133 make their tournament peak performances possibly better, but the consistency I think we'll get in the twins will have a better team impact for duals.  I don't see them getting blown away often there, even if out-slicked.  That starts the duals out better than two dominant techfall losses.

Malik was absolutely undersized this past year. He didn’t cut to make 125. 
  
I’ve been skeptical about Decatur’s folkstyle success forever and still am, but he has the work ethic and ability to be AA level. Not sure if he gets there though. A redshirt might be a great idea. 
  
peyton Robb is known for horsing everyone. It was also widely known that he had a tough cut, and will very likely move up this year. He couldn’t last year because there was a title contender in the lineup at 165. 
  
I agree on the 197 and hvwt points. Is actually prefer Singletary at hvwt personally. I think he is 80% to AA at hvwt and maybe 25% at 197 (lots of unknowns though)

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I thought Robb  might be a candidate to move up, too. but sounds like he'll be at 57 for quite a while. certainly this season. 

nebraska has a bunch of guys at 41/49/57 and no one quite big enough to get in to 65. Lovett/Kevon/Hardy/Condomitti/Robb

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

Malik was absolutely undersized this past year. He didn’t cut to make 125. 
  
I’ve been skeptical about Decatur’s folkstyle success forever and still am, but he has the work ethic and ability to be AA level. Not sure if he gets there though. A redshirt might be a great idea. 
  
peyton Robb is known for horsing everyone. It was also widely known that he had a tough cut, and will very likely move up this year. He couldn’t last year because there was a title contender in the lineup at 165. 
  
I agree on the 197 and hvwt points. Is actually prefer Singletary at hvwt personally. I think he is 80% to AA at hvwt and maybe 25% at 197 (lots of unknowns though)

I didn't think he was horsing folks at B1Gs or Cliff Keen.  Against Kinner he looked at least a weight class larger and it was obvious. Obviously he was/is strong, but not world beater raw power.  I remember watching the MSU and UofM duals as well and I didn't get the feeling he was horsing Lewan or Tucker.  I didn't watch all his matches, though, and I've not followed him on a personal level, so I'll have to defer to you.

Also, Malik did cut to make 125 this year.  Ryan went on record a few times saying that he would not be undersized.  Strength was a factor in many matches, however it was due to lack of strength, and not lack of size.

Also hear me out on this one.  What do you(or anyone else) say to this:

165-IF Kharchla beats Smith
174-Then IF Smith beats Romero
184-Romero/Jordan wrestle off.
197-Loser of Romero/Jordan VS Hoffman for 197.  Does anyone think Jordan would be okay at 197?  Same question for Romero, if it comes to it(Rocky did beat Romero at 174 last year while he was sucking weight).  While Hoffman is rather short, I still think he's going to do just fine, if/when given the opportunity.

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6 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I didn't think he was horsing folks at B1Gs or Cliff Keen.  Against Kinner he looked at least a weight class larger and it was obvious. Obviously he was/is strong, but not world beater raw power.  I remember watching the MSU and UofM duals as well and I didn't get the feeling he was horsing Lewan or Tucker.  I didn't watch all his matches, though, and I've not followed him on a personal level, so I'll have to defer to you.

Also, Malik did cut to make 125 this year.  Ryan went on record a few times saying that he would not be undersized.  Strength was a factor in many matches, however it was due to lack of strength, and not lack of size.

Also hear me out on this one.  What do you(or anyone else) say to this:

165-IF Kharchla beats Smith
174-Then IF Smith beats Romero
184-Romero/Jordan wrestle off.
197-Loser of Romero/Jordan VS Hoffman for 197.  Does anyone think Jordan would be okay at 197?  Same question for Romero, if it comes to it(Rocky did beat Romero at 174 last year while he was sucking weight).  While Hoffman is rather short, I still think he's going to do just fine, if/when given the opportunity.

I think 165,174, 184 will be between Smith, Karchla, Romero, and Rocky and 197 will be between Singletary and Hoffman.   Heavyweight will likely be Orndorff then Traub so pretty good depth from 165 up.  Of those four I think Karchla is the best and Romero the next best.  I always thought Karchla would be a career 165 because of his height but I'm hearing he is big and will be 174.  I had Romero top four at 174 but recent social media hugeness suggests he could go up and challenge Rocky at 184.   I would favor Romero in the match up with Jordan but am unsure how he matches up with top guys at 184.  It would probably be best for the lineup if Sasso was at 157 and some combination of Echemendia/Kinner were 141/149.  With Malik it's not an either or situation.  He is a little small, needs to finish his low level attacks quicker, and gets rode like a Harley but he's lightening quick and shows flashes of brilliance on his feet.  I assume they're working to improve on deficits.  Jordan Decatur is outstanding on his feet and struggled on the mat and with conditioning as many thought he would making the adjustment to college.  I've heard the talk of 141 but with Echemendia, Kinner, D'Emilio I think JD's chance to be a starter of tOSU is a 133.  

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On 7/3/2020 at 9:04 AM, balanceseeker said:

Both statements you made are inaccurate.  Koontz wrestled at Cliff Keen and beat 2 seeded guys to make the semis.  Jarret Trombley of NC State ended up 20-9 and an NCAA qualifyer last year.  Josh Kramer of Arizona State was ranked in the top 15 at one point last year and had a decent seed at Vegas.  His performance fell off a bit at the end of the year (he lost to Decatur by a similar score that he lost to Koontz) but still a legit starter.  Regarding 285's cutting to 197 the only person I remember doing this is Kevin Snyder, and he performed slightly better at 197, but it was understood that he was depth at either weight.  The Bucks have done the opposite and attempted to grow 197's into mobile Heavyweights on numerous occasion.  Bergman, Corey Morrison, and Pete Capone were all examples of this with Bergman being the most successful obviously.

 Not sure how you think you contradicted my point but everyone of those guys did much better at heavyweight than at 197, as did Kyle snyder.  I didn’t say that they necessarily wrestled heavy weight first.  Corey Morrison was like three and 15 at 197 but a serviceable heavyweight.  I’m sure we all remember the performance of number one ranked 220 lb recruit Cody Gardner at 197.... yikes.  Although Bergman was an all American twice at 197 he had a much better season at heavyweight.

Kyle freaking Snyder lost to Nathan burak and kyven Garson at 197 a few months before winning worlds at 213... If that doesn’t make the point for you about Buckeye tweeners at 197 nothing will.

You’re correct that one of the koontz brothers squeaked out a few wins over some guys that barely qualified  for NCAA, But he also failed the place at two weak open tournaments taking very bad losses.  If they were better than the current guys they would’ve been starting this year- so I don’t see what’s going to change. I’d love to be wrong.  

Edited by Cradle1

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15 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

I don’t think so.  I think the answer is it’s literally never happened But there’s always an exception to the rule. And what’s really interesting is I could list literally dozens of guys over the years that have gone from 197 to heavyweight and had dramatically improved results. The most obvious and recent being Anthony Cassar and Derek white. 

Edited by Cradle1

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On 7/4/2020 at 10:16 AM, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

Ben Honis wrestled 285 his junior year (lost 197 to Darmstadt), going 3-4, then dropped to 197 his senior year and got 8th at NCAAs.  One could argue that he was never a "full-sized" 285, though.

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On 7/4/2020 at 10:16 AM, 1032004 said:

Have there been any HWT’s at any school cut to 197 and do better there?

My freshman year at Lehigh (1976) Don McCorkle wrestled at heavyweight (unlimited at that time) - He finished his junior campaign as an EIWA champion but did not place at NCAAs - The following year he dropped to 190 lbs and won his 3rd straight EIWA title and took 3rd at NCAAs.   I think Don was weighing around 215 by the end of the season his junior year.  

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18 hours ago, klehner said:

Ben Honis wrestled 285 his junior year (lost 197 to Darmstadt), going 3-4, then dropped to 197 his senior year and got 8th at NCAAs.  One could argue that he was never a "full-sized" 285, though.

Interesting data point, thanks.   Considering he wrestled matches at both 197 and 285 in the same year, yeah I would be surprised if he was ever over like 210 or so - and apparently is only listed as 215 on his Syracuse football page - so probably was never much more than 200 during wrestling season. 

Edited by 1032004

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On 7/4/2020 at 1:22 PM, nhs67 said:

I didn't think he was horsing folks at B1Gs or Cliff Keen.  Against Kinner he looked at least a weight class larger and it was obvious. Obviously he was/is strong, but not world beater raw power.  I remember watching the MSU and UofM duals as well and I didn't get the feeling he was horsing Lewan or Tucker.  I didn't watch all his matches, though, and I've not followed him on a personal level, so I'll have to defer to you.

Also, Malik did cut to make 125 this year.  Ryan went on record a few times saying that he would not be undersized.  Strength was a factor in many matches, however it was due to lack of strength, and not lack of size.

Also hear me out on this one.  What do you(or anyone else) say to this:

165-IF Kharchla beats Smith
174-Then IF Smith beats Romero
184-Romero/Jordan wrestle off.
197-Loser of Romero/Jordan VS Hoffman for 197.  Does anyone think Jordan would be okay at 197?  Same question for Romero, if it comes to it(Rocky did beat Romero at 174 last year while he was sucking weight).  While Hoffman is rather short, I still think he's going to do just fine, if/when given the opportunity.

I think Karchla ends up at 174. 
  
I don’t think Rocky at 197 is a good idea. I also don’t think anyone can beat him at 184 for the starting spot. He is too big now. 
  
If Romero can’t drop to 165 and perform, he may be out of the lineup. Pretty crazy for a guy seeded to AA. 
  
I really hope one of these guys can somehow make 157

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2 hours ago, Housebuye said:

I think Karchla ends up at 174. 
  
I don’t think Rocky at 197 is a good idea. I also don’t think anyone can beat him at 184 for the starting spot. He is too big now. 
  
If Romero can’t drop to 165 and perform, he may be out of the lineup. Pretty crazy for a guy seeded to AA. 
  
I really hope one of these guys can somehow make 157

I agree that Karchla will be at 174 and this likely pushes Romero up to 184.  Where we disagree is I think Romero will beat Rocky for the spot at 184.  Romero had much better wins and was a solid candidate to AA.  Rocky definitely improved after he moved up but was still very inconsistent looked like maybe a round of 16/bloodround kind of guy.  Rocky's signature win against Venz was avenged by Venz with a whooping making it seem less legit.  Romero had numerous top ten wins and hang tough with the top guys.  As far as questions about size, Romero is a big athletic dude who is apparently huge right now, so I don't know that it will be an issue.

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1 minute ago, balanceseeker said:

I agree that Karchla will be at 174 and this likely pushes Romero up to 184.  Where we disagree is I think Romero will beat Rocky for the spot at 184.  Romero had much better wins and was a solid candidate to AA.  Rocky definitely improved after he moved up but was still very inconsistent looked like maybe a round of 16/bloodround kind of guy.  Rocky's signature win against Venz was avenged by Venz with a whooping making it seem less legit.  Romero had numerous top ten wins and hang tough with the top guys.  As far as questions about size, Romero is a big athletic dude who is apparently huge right now, so I don't know that it will be an issue.

Rocky beat him last year while sucking down to 174.

Romero is just one season removed from being an average 165lber.

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2 hours ago, Housebuye said:

I think Karchla ends up at 174. 
  
I don’t think Rocky at 197 is a good idea. I also don’t think anyone can beat him at 184 for the starting spot. He is too big now. 
  
If Romero can’t drop to 165 and perform, he may be out of the lineup. Pretty crazy for a guy seeded to AA. 
  
I really hope one of these guys can somehow make 157

I don't think Rocky at 197 is a good idea either, to be clear.

I think a lineup with one of them performing at 157 is a lineup that has the potential to take home a trophy.

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On 7/1/2020 at 11:29 PM, Cradle1 said:

koontz is not the answer at 133, Look at his wins they are against smaller division guys and backups at opens.  Singletary will flop at 197.  Every single Heavyweight who has ever cut to 197 has flopped so it’s guaranteed. tOsu has already tried this with look four different tweeners in the Tom Ryan era and they all either outright bombed or had  significantly worse results than at heavyweight.

 

 

I’m not saying that a Koontz is the answer at 33, just saying he’d be an ok backup alternate if Decatur can’t make 33..... and I think that’s a reach saying Singletary will flop at 97, he could have AA being an undersized HTW.... I think he’ll impress at 97

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3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Rocky beat him last year while sucking down to 174.

Romero is just one season removed from being an average 165lber.

I was at the wrestle off, it was a joke and Rocky should have been hit for stalling at 2-3 more times.  Going into this match I favored Rocky but Romero outwrestled him and everyone in the gym knew it.  Romero outperformed Rocky in the early season winning a tournament where Rocky didn't place (I think he went 1-2).  Romero etched numerous good early season victories while Rocky struggled despite being given every opportunity to win the spot at 174 by the staff.  As I said, Rocky's performance when he moved up was better but not as consistent as Romero and without as many good wins.  Romero was sucked down too much at 165 and that was a big part of the problem (Buckeye staff has admitted this). I also think he made a big jump technically (particularly his hand fighting, finishing, and bottom got a lot better).  Romero was a 3 sport athlete in HS and although he was already very good coming out, I think he has a steep learning curve.  I am a Buckeye fan and like Rocky Jordan.  I would be fine with either guy provided they get the job done, I just believe it will be Romero.

Edited by balanceseeker

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On 7/5/2020 at 12:02 AM, Cradle1 said:

 Not sure how you think you contradicted my point but everyone of those guys did much better at heavyweight than at 197, as did Kyle snyder.  I didn’t say that they necessarily wrestled heavy weight first.  Corey Morrison was like three and 15 at 197 but a serviceable heavyweight.  I’m sure we all remember the performance of number one ranked 220 lb recruit Cody Gardner at 197.... yikes.  Although Bergman was an all American twice at 197 he had a much better season at heavyweight.

Kyle freaking Snyder lost to Nathan burak and kyven Garson at 197 a few months before winning worlds at 213... If that doesn’t make the point for you about Buckeye tweeners at 197 nothing will.

You’re correct that one of the koontz brothers squeaked out a few wins over some guys that barely qualified  for NCAA, But he also failed the place at two weak open tournaments taking very bad losses.  If they were better than the current guys they would’ve been starting this year- so I don’t see what’s going to change. I’d love to be wrong.  

You absolutely said " Every single Heavyweight who has ever cut to 197 has flopped so it’s guaranteed. "  This suggests that they were initially heavyweights and "cut" to 197.   If what you meant was that guys who wrestle 220 in high school and try to cut to 197 usually don't work out or sometimes 197's move up and have more success at heavyweight then we totally agree which is why I listed numerous examples of this happening.  Unfortunately, two of the biggest 220 to 197  busts in recent memory, Andrew Campolatanno and Cody Gardner were Buckeyes so I know this too well.  Despite this I think Singletary will AA next year at 197.

Edited by balanceseeker

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7 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

You absolutely said " Every single Heavyweight who has ever cut to 197 has flopped so it’s guaranteed. "  This suggests that they were initially heavyweights and "cut" to 197.   If what you meant was that guys who wrestle 220 in high school and try to cut to 197 usually don't work out or sometimes 197's move up and have more success at heavyweight then we totally agree which is why I listed numerous examples of this happening.  Unfortunately, two of the biggest 220 to 197  busts in recent memory, Andrew Campolatanno and Cody Gardner were Buckeyes so I know this too well.  Despite this I think Singletary will AA next year at 197.

 Christ I forgot campolattano.  Come on Tom, how many times can you make the same mistake? This will be the fourth time he’s cut a 220 down to 197. The first three times were a disaster (Disaster being a relative term in Snyder’s case) But maybe it’s gonna work out really well this time.  

 

9 hours ago, Kov88 said:

I’m not saying that a Koontz is the answer at 33, just saying he’d be an ok backup alternate if Decatur can’t make 33..... and I think that’s a reach saying Singletary will flop at 97, he could have AA being an undersized HTW.... I think he’ll impress at 97

Well I’d love to be wrong but the Track record of 220s and heavyweight at 197 speaks for itself. Agreed that koontz is a serviceable back up, But at this time I don’t think we have anybody below 141 who will score ncaa points behind maybe the first round consolation win. And I’m not sold on echemendia in folkstyle or any of our options at 157.  Furthermore, it seems to me that we have four really good wrestlers whose true weight class is 174.  Orndorff should do well but heavyweight is super stacked so low AA at best. 

Look for big seasons from sasso, kharchla, and Romero. Also think that Rocky Jordan has a lot of upside as he grows into 184.   I’ve always liked Ethan Smith but I think he’s the odd man out. 

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I have several reasons for believing Singletary will be very good at 197:

1. Unlike most 220 that made the drop, Singletary was not overly dependent on superior athleticism but instead technique and match management.  In other words he was seriously outgunned and found a way to get it done anyway.  As hard as it is to be successful at this level it says a lot about the guy's grit and toughness.

2.  Many who make the switch were unsuccessful at the higher weight.  While Singletary was not in the super elite he was an AA candidate and had some very good wins at heavyweight including Parris and Stencel. 

3. Ohio State and the OTC have great competition and coaching in the upper weights.  The challenge from Gavin Hoffman and getting to bang with Orndorff and Traub daily will help.  Having Cox, Moore and Martin at the OTC is fantastic even with the defection of Snyder.  Tervel's coaching prowess is well documented.

4. Singletary's success in limited time down at 97 KG including a win over Honis who was an AA at 197.

 

 I think Ultimately it will come down to if he can handle the cut, I believe he will be fine but if he isn't Hoffman presents a nice alternative.  Maybe they both end up being successful at 197 and the Bucks end up with good depth and competition at this weight.  I know that probably isn't likely but both guys were blue chippers wrestling out of weight class so it's reasonable to believe that whoever emerges should be very competitive.

 

 

Edited by balanceseeker

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