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fadzaev2

Remembering my first World Cup of Wrestling 1973

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It was held in Toledo, Ohio and was the first World Cup held in the United States.  There was to be 16 more World Cups held in Toledo, largely due to the influence of Joe Scalzo and Dick Torio who both were from Toledo.  Scalzo, former U. of Toledo Wrestling Coach, a lawyer, VP of FILA at one time, also brought 2 World Championships to Toledo....1962 and 1966.  Torio, who owned a health club in Toledo, was a 3 time All-American, wrestling for UT, was involved with 5 Olympic games, 4 as an official, and 1 as a coach.  Both of these guys have been inducted into several wrestling Hall of Fames.  That first World Cup had a very good team, including Jimmy Carr, Lloyd Keaser, Stan Dziedzic, John and Ben Peterson  and maybe a couple other great ones.  The single greatest thing I remember during the competition, was Jimmy Carr suplaying the Russian 4 or 5 times in a row, and the Russian coach, Yuri Shakmiradov getting all but one of them taken away during a time out. (no video review back then of course).   Another memory I have was up in a press box "filming" from up high in the old Fieldhouse, and Neil Turner of Athletes in Action was sitting next to me during the gift exchange.  He told me to watch when Ben and John Peterson (AIA) exchanged there gifts.  All the other Soviets opened up there gifts right there....maybe t-shirts/jeans.......but the 2 Soviets with the Peterson's didn't open theirs, as there were Bibles wrapped in the t-shirts.  Another great memory was that I was able to go the World Cup training camp.....actually went home and got my movie projector so Gable  could show his Munich Gold medal match with Ruslan Ashruliev to the guys in the training camp.  During the camp, I watched Gable work out with some really good guys, some who outweighed him and it didn't matter...he dominated.  He didn't compete in this meet ....he was coaching with Bill Wieck and Jim Peckham.  Gable was to wrestle one more match soon after this competition in Madison Square Garden against the Russians, and then retire, although he did try a comeback a couple years later.  Gable beat the 149.5 pounder,  Pavel Pinigin in the Garden.  Pinigin, who was a Junior World Champion, actually scored a takedown, and then Gable beat him pretty good.  Lloyd Keaser beat Pinigin in the World Cup.  This meet was the beginning of a great tradition.  Other teams that wrestled over the years in the World Cup included Russia, Cuba, Iran, Canada, Japan  (As a side note, I attended one session of the 1966 World Championships in Toledo, but was young enough that I couldn't appreciate it yet.  Also, it was Greco-Roman which was held the same week as the Freestyle)

49945377322_b4551f2258_w.jpg

Edited by fadzaev2

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Actually, after thinking about this more, I think I learned what I refer to as the  "Russian Roll" from here.....may have been earlier though ......Roman Dmietriev vs. Orta....USA vs. USSR.....all I know is, that you it from the illustrated position....not that Ashruliev could have done it on Gable, but.......I hi-crotch, he locks up around the waist, and I catch the wrist on the same side as my hi-c.  From there, I sit through and roll him to his back....exposure, maybe even a pin.  I think I saw it both places, but it hit home the second time.

49923451367_a07cb542cc_z.jpg

Edited by fadzaev2

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That wasn’t too long after the attacks in Munich, was it? Being a world event and all, was there a lot of added tension in the air? Did it affect the competitors? Was the tournament and camp on lockdown and difficult to get in and out?

,I love the design of that ‘66 ticket stub btw.

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7 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

Actually, after thinking about this more, I think I learned what I refer to as the  "Russian Roll" from here.....may have been earlier though ......Roman Dmietriev vs. Orta....USA vs. USSR.....all I know is, that you it from the illustrated position....not that Ashruliev could have done it on Gable, but.......I hi-crotch, he locks up around the waist, and I catch the wrist on the same side as my hi-c.  From there, I sit through and roll him to his back....exposure, maybe even a pin.  I think I saw it both places, but it hit home the second time.

49923451367_a07cb542cc_z.jpg

Hey FadZ, I saw the same 'Russian roll' at a USA vs USSR dual in Chattanooga in early 70's; it's kinda like a peek out off an opponent's chest lock, but you control the wrist opposite of the side you peek, and yes he is definitely on his back. (key point is that the hand catching his wrist a x-wrist; so if I'm peeking to my right side, I control his right wrist with my right hand)

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Maybe so....I'd have to try it....in the photo above, I'm pretty sure Gable doesn't have a chest wrap/front bodylock....on the blind side,  he is blocking the double off, so he is only hooking the belly on this side....only option here is to catch the wrist on the hi-c side.  I have this match on video....I've watched it before....seems like they were in this position almost a whole period (3 minute periods, 3-3-3)    Sidenote.....I just watched Dmitriev vs Orta and Dmitriev did what I described, and did it standing up with Orta over his shoulder...caught the wrist on the same side and roll him across his back for the exposure.  The more I think about it, I'm guessing you could cross wrist roll there too!!!!  I don't think you saw much chest wrap back then.....there were lot's of crotch lifts, or stop the shot and front headlock/go behind or score off of the fhlock, or arm and and butt drag.

Edited by fadzaev2

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7 hours ago, pamela said:

That wasn’t too long after the attacks in Munich, was it? Being a world event and all, was there a lot of added tension in the air? Did it affect the competitors? Was the tournament and camp on lockdown and difficult to get in and out?

,I love the design of that ‘66 ticket stub btw.

I don't remember any tension....I think it was 4 teams without going up to dig out a program.  Probably USA, USSR, Japan  and Canada or Cuba the first year.....later there were maybe 5 teams.  The Russians had to be careful with the Bibles though.

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I know two techniques fairly similar from there.  From a crack down position similar to where the photo is  in which results in a reverse carry position like Coleman Scott and the other is where Sads caught our guy Kyle last year.  Maybe I'm not following your roll, but do either of those seem like your technique?   Sorry my Scott comparison above was completely wrong.  Coleman swam for the head, but to capture the arm and stack him up the opposite direction was one of my options I taught from that general position.

 

 

 

Edited by Peso

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1 hour ago, Peso said:

I know two techniques fairly similar from there.  From a crack down position similar to where the photo is  in which results in a reverse carry position like Coleman Scott and the other is where Sads caught our guy Kyle last year.  Maybe I'm not following your roll, but do either of those seem like your technique?   Sorry my Scott comparison above was completely wrong.  Coleman swam for the head, but to capture the arm and stack him up the opposite direction was one of my options I taught from that general position.

 

 

 

A former Michigan wrestler  hit the move Saduliev hit on Snyder a number of times...his name was Larry Gotcher, so some people call it a "Gotcher".  He used to shoot in straight out front on purpose to get them to reach over the top with both arms and then it was trouble....he got a few pins that way...   Lot's of ways to finish a crackdown,  I'm not sure my original technque I referenced is the same as what you are talking about.

 

Edited by fadzaev2

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11 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

A former Michigan wrestler  hit the move Saduliev hit on Snyder a number of times...his name was Larry Gotcher, so some people call it a "Gotcher".  He used to shoot in straight out front on purpose to get them to reach over the top with both arms and then it was trouble....he got a few pins that way...   Lot's of ways to finish a crackdown,  I'm not sure my original technque I referenced is the same as what you are talking about.

 

I went back and looked at a Jim Humphrey tape I had, and that roll finish is very similar....one starts out head up, back straight hips in, and the other starts out with the crackdown.  I looked at the Dmetriev roll, it was different than I thought...he had changed to a double...kept the far leg, started with the near elbow, but then it looks like he switched to the far/crosswrist.  Pictures I'm posting aren't very good....the film of Dmietriev isn't this bad when it's running.

49948319491_e3d5397987_w.jpg

 

49948610822_8d939254c3_w.jpgr

 

49947820243_71406bddc5_w.jpg

 

Edited by fadzaev2

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Thanks man.  Good stuff.  I'm a retired h.s. coach, but will always be a student of the game.  Off topic, but a quick question if you don't mind.  Do we know yet if the Russians will be in Tokyo?  I haven't heard definitively.   Last I heard they may farm a few of them out to other teams.  

 

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11 hours ago, Peso said:

Thanks man.  Good stuff.  I'm a retired h.s. coach, but will always be a student of the game.  Off topic, but a quick question if you don't mind.  Do we know yet if the Russians will be in Tokyo?  I haven't heard definitively.   Last I heard they may farm a few of them out to other teams.  

 

I have not heard anything, and I could see them trying to do that.

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 8:25 AM, fadzaev2 said:

It was held in Toledo, Ohio and was the first World Cup held in the United States.  There was to be 16 more World Cups held in Toledo, largely due to the influence of Joe Scalzo and Dick Torio who both were from Toledo.  Scalzo, former U. of Toledo Wrestling Coach, a lawyer, VP of FILA at one time, also brought 2 World Championships to Toledo....1962 and 1966.  Torio, who owned a health club in Toledo, was a 3 time All-American, wrestling for UT, was involved with 5 Olympic games, 4 as an official, and 1 as a coach.  Both of these guys have been inducted into several wrestling Hall of Fames.  That first World Cup had a very good team, including Jimmy Carr, Lloyd Keaser, Stan Dziedzic, John and Ben Peterson  and maybe a couple other great ones.  The single greatest thing I remember during the competition, was Jimmy Carr suplaying the Russian 4 or 5 times in a row, and the Russian coach, Yuri Shakmiradov getting all but one of them taken away during a time out. (no video review back then of course).   Another memory I have was up in a press box "filming" from up high in the old Fieldhouse, and Neil Turner of Athletes in Action was sitting next to me during the gift exchange.  He told me to watch when Ben and John Peterson (AIA) exchanged there gifts.  All the other Soviets opened up there gifts right there....maybe t-shirts/jeans.......but the 2 Soviets with the Peterson's didn't open theirs, as there were Bibles wrapped in the t-shirts.  Another great memory was that I was able to go the World Cup training camp.....actually went home and got my movie projector so Gable  could show his Munich Gold medal match with Ruslan Ashruliev to the guys in the training camp.  During the camp, I watched Gable work out with some really good guys, some who outweighed him and it didn't matter...he dominated.  He didn't compete in this meet ....he was coaching with Bill Wieck and Jim Peckham.  Gable was to wrestle one more match soon after this competition in Madison Square Garden against the Russians, and then retire, although he did try a comeback a couple years later.  Gable beat the 149.5 pounder,  Pavel Pinigin in the Garden.  Pinigin, who was a Junior World Champion, actually scored a takedown, and then Gable beat him pretty good.  Lloyd Keaser beat Pinigin in the World Cup.  This meet was the beginning of a great tradition.  Other teams that wrestled over the years in the World Cup included Russia, Cuba, Iran, Canada, Japan  (As a side note, I attended one session of the 1966 World Championships in Toledo, but was young enough that I couldn't appreciate it yet.  Also, it was Greco-Roman which was held the same week as the Freestyle)

49945377322_b4551f2258_w.jpg

How did we lose this?  I bet you'd make a million bucks if you just gave us a cheap ppv with the top 6.teams all wrestling each other over 3 days.  Russia is amazing, truly one of the greatest dynasties in any sport.  I believe one of the World Cup matches was where big Bruce pinned the big Russian...embarrassed I can't remember his name, but he was a big bad man.  Also when "Mean Gene" broke the Russians arm and...well there wasn't a lot of love lost in that dual.  Man it would sure be great if that somehow came back.

 

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7 hours ago, Peso said:

How did we lose this?  I bet you'd make a million bucks if you just gave us a cheap ppv with the top 6.teams all wrestling each other over 3 days.  Russia is amazing, truly one of the greatest dynasties in any sport.  I believe one of the World Cup matches was where big Bruce pinned the big Russian...embarrassed I can't remember his name, but he was a big bad man.  Also when "Mean Gene" broke the Russians arm and...well there wasn't a lot of love lost in that dual.  Man it would sure be great if that somehow came back.

 

I think he did pin a Russian for us to win a World Cup, and the 2 great hwts. during his time were Soslan Andiev and David Gobeshvili, but I'm not sure it was one of them.....I probably have the newspaper clippings up in my attic.....but not going there.....LOL

Edited by fadzaev2

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14 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

I think did pin a Russian for us to win a World Cup, and the 2 great hwts. during his time were Soslan Andiev and David Gobeshvili, but I'm not sure it was one of them.....I probably have the newspaper clippings up in my attic.....but not going there.....LOL

Chasimikov? What year?

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On 5/30/2020 at 8:51 PM, Peso said:

Thanks man.  Good stuff.  I'm a retired h.s. coach, but will always be a student of the game.  Off topic, but a quick question if you don't mind.  Do we know yet if the Russians will be in Tokyo?  I haven't heard definitively.   Last I heard they may farm a few of them out to other teams.  

 

UWW said that nobody can transfer countries during the delay of the Olympics. So even if somebody from Russia wanted to switch to wrestling for another country, they wouldn't be allowed to and be eligible for the Olympics.  

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On 6/7/2020 at 9:11 PM, fadzaev2 said:

I think he did pin a Russian for us to win a World Cup, and the 2 great hwts. during his time were Soslan Andiev and David Gobeshvili, but I'm not sure it was one of them.....I probably have the newspaper clippings up in my attic.....but not going there.....LOL

Yes it was Gobshvilli.  I think he was only a one time world champion, but that's definitely the guy.  God how does the world not demand this dual play out at least every 2 years...

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It pisses me off that Russia cheated and has to miss this.  Really takes so much away.  It's going to be epic anyway, but as good as these guys are, the Big Red Soviet Union Wrestling team won 19 in a row.  The USSR was most dominant on the world level in what they thought was important.  1.  Wrestling, 2.  Chess, 3.  Hockey.

 

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11 hours ago, Peso said:

It pisses me off that Russia cheated and has to miss this.  Really takes so much away.  It's going to be epic anyway, but as good as these guys are, the Big Red Soviet Union Wrestling team won 19 in a row.  The USSR was most dominant on the world level in what they thought was important.  1.  Wrestling, 2.  Chess, 3.  Hockey.

 

I believe the average Russian cares very little about wrestling.  I know in some of the  Muslim republics it is huge, but with ethnic Russians not so much

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16 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I believe the average Russian cares very little about wrestling.  I know in some of the  Muslim republics it is huge, but with ethnic Russians not so much

It's more in the Caucasus area. I would say the proficiency probably lies more with the government.

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21 hours ago, Peso said:

Yes it was Gobshvilli.  I think he was only a one time world champion, but that's definitely the guy.  God how does the world not demand this dual play out at least every 2 years...

Gobedshvili was Baumgartners #1 nemesis....1 Olympic Gold/1 Bronze.   2 World Gold/1 silver

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Between Andiev and Gobedshivilli, it was Chamiskov (sp), also at that time was an up and coming Pole that stood about 7 ft tall (Sandursky) who lost in the finals to Chamiskov

The next year they put in the 286 wt class which about emaciated the Pole, who before was weighing around 330. FILA almost dropped it to 275, until hearing that Karelin could have issues making weight. Being the draw for the sport that Karelin already generated, FILA quickly changed to 286.

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