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USA Wrestling--Black Male Athletes' Experience

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24 minutes ago, matts1w said:

Amazing how a bunch of white people believe it makes perfect legitamate sense to get together on the interwebs to tell black people the correct ways to define, experience, and react to racism.  This includes what langiuage to use, how to appropriately express discontent, and to empathetically apply what they see as flaws in logic (reverse racism) to opressed white people.

 

Isnt this pretty much exactly racism?  Good grief...

 

 

Looks like we have another charter member of the shut up and listen crowd 

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2 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Looks like we have another charter member of the shut up and listen crowd 

Damn straight.  Like many people I once believed I had all the answewrs, but the day I grew up is the day I leanred I didnt even know the questions yet.  

 

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1 hour ago, matts1w said:

Amazing how a bunch of white people believe it makes perfect legitamate sense to get together on the interwebs to tell black people the correct ways to define, experience, and react to racism.  This includes what langiuage to use, how to appropriately express discontent, and to empathetically apply what they see as flaws in logic (reverse racism) to opressed white people.

 

Isnt this pretty much exactly racism?  Good grief...

 

 

funny... exactly none of this happened...

rest easy in the knowledge you still are not the silliest person who has posted in this thread...

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1 hour ago, matts1w said:

Damn straight.  Like many people I once believed I had all the answewrs, but the day I grew up is the day I leanred I didnt even know the questions yet.  

 

Problem with your mindset is you only shut up and listen to people that you agree with and in your mind everyone else is wrong

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15 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Problem with your mindset is you only shut up and listen to people that you agree with and in your mind everyone else is wrong

I absolutley listen, even to you.  In your judgement of me above you are 100 percent wrong.  

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9 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Idk how you could’ve missed my point anymore, the coaches and athletes of the wrestling world are not racist, the colleges as institutions that teach kids now that the country is evil and racist, are in fact themselves probably the biggest problem.

but if the wrestling world is racist as say and “systemic” in nature, then they would never have accepted AE in the first place because not only is he not white he’s a refugee too, but in fact the total opposite is the case, he already has a fan club 

the wrestling world wouldn’t have Jordan Burroughs as the epitome of the sport, racist systems don’t allow that, your either naivety or ignorance to what racism actually is and looks like is astonishing 

if Anthony Cassar wasn’t good at wrestling he probably wouldn’t have went to penn state or got any type of aid either, your point makes no sense . If JB was a B+ student and Anthony Cassar was an A- student with the same test scores applying to the same school at the same time JB would get it before Cassar, but your implying it’s systemic against JB

The only point you made is your delusional 

The point I was making is if a black kid with marginal grades couldn't play football, there would be much less opportunity for him than somebody who had similar grades and was white.  I went to high school with guys who went D1 right out of high school and they were mostly pretty poor students. One used to cheat off me in a class, I didn't care, and he ended up with a better grade than me.  College coaches will bend or break the rules to land somebody who they think will win for them.  They don't do it out of the goodness of their heart or because they like helping people. Every college coach is mercenary by nature, same for any sport that requires you to win to keep your job.  If Echemendia had never touched a wrestling mat, I guarantee that Ryan wouldn't give a **** whether he went to college or not.  Ryan sees what Echemendia can do for him and his program. 

Also I've heard lots of coaches say racist things. It's part of the culture. One former D1 wrestler who is a coach here now used the term "n word quick" to describe RBY and what he does.  He repeated it again when explaining to a wrestler what he needed to develop.  Another coach who isn't coaching anymore was explaining about a transfer student who was Muslim and without prompting said that he came from a respectable family that was one of the good kinds of them (Muslim) and not a terrorist.  You can't say racism doesn't exist in wrestling because it does.  It's part of the culture of wrestling, you get coaches who are from smaller towns in the midwest and they just have that attitude.  I had high school friends and teammates who were heckled with some pretty heinous stuff in high school (we had more than a few Hispanic wrestlers) and it pretty much went unchecked. Probably the only time I can think of somebody doing anything was a wrestler I knew who got disqualified from the state duals (when we had them) for calling his opponent the n word during a match.  Looking at the Bubba Jenkins/Penn State thing, you don't really have to look to deep to see racism.  And trust me, with Sanderson's religion, that kind of stuff is ingrained into that culture. The official doctrine about it may have been rescinded years ago, but unofficially it's still a thing. I even had a prominent wrestler once tell me he didn't think black people were developed enough culturally to hold important positions and shouldn't be allowed to teach.  Maybe you've never actually heard it, but it's shocking to hear guys who are NCAA champions, world team members, All Americans, or respected coaches saying this kind of stuff. Racism in wrestling definitely exists and to pretend it doesn't then you're just ignoring reality.  

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25 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

The point I was making is if a black kid with marginal grades couldn't play football, there would be much less opportunity for him than somebody who had similar grades and was white.  I went to high school with guys who went D1 right out of high school and they were mostly pretty poor students. One used to cheat off me in a class, I didn't care, and he ended up with a better grade than me.  College coaches will bend or break the rules to land somebody who they think will win for them.  They don't do it out of the goodness of their heart or because they like helping people. Every college coach is mercenary by nature, same for any sport that requires you to win to keep your job.  If Echemendia had never touched a wrestling mat, I guarantee that Ryan wouldn't give a **** whether he went to college or not.  Ryan sees what Echemendia can do for him and his program. 

Also I've heard lots of coaches say racist things. It's part of the culture. One former D1 wrestler who is a coach here now used the term "n word quick" to describe RBY and what he does.  He repeated it again when explaining to a wrestler what he needed to develop.  Another coach who isn't coaching anymore was explaining about a transfer student who was Muslim and without prompting said that he came from a respectable family that was one of the good kinds of them (Muslim) and not a terrorist.  You can't say racism doesn't exist in wrestling because it does.  It's part of the culture of wrestling, you get coaches who are from smaller towns in the midwest and they just have that attitude.  I had high school friends and teammates who were heckled with some pretty heinous stuff in high school (we had more than a few Hispanic wrestlers) and it pretty much went unchecked. Probably the only time I can think of somebody doing anything was a wrestler I knew who got disqualified from the state duals (when we had them) for calling his opponent the n word during a match.  Looking at the Bubba Jenkins/Penn State thing, you don't really have to look to deep to see racism.  And trust me, with Sanderson's religion, that kind of stuff is ingrained into that culture. The official doctrine about it may have been rescinded years ago, but unofficially it's still a thing. I even had a prominent wrestler once tell me he didn't think black people were developed enough culturally to hold important positions and shouldn't be allowed to teach.  Maybe you've never actually heard it, but it's shocking to hear guys who are NCAA champions, world team members, All Americans, or respected coaches saying this kind of stuff. Racism in wrestling definitely exists and to pretend it doesn't then you're just ignoring reality.  

What makes you think non-athlete black marginal students have significantly fewer college opportunities than white students with similar grades?

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I am an hour into the video.  Really gave me a lot to think about.  As a teenager I watched Kenny Monday a ton and how would I have described him.  Strong, slick, quick, athletic, etc.  He is indeed all of them but also had to be technical, and a student of the sport.  

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Gable Steveson has kind of grated on me a bit in the past, but the more I read about him, the more I like him. 

Seems more worldly than I was at his age, that's for sure. Good to see that he's using his platform for good. I won't equate the situation that African American athletes and female athletes to each other, as I simply have no clue, but Gable posted some screenshots of how people react to simple INTERVIEWS with prominent American wrestlers who happen to be female. 

Good on him for calling these pieces of trash out.

 

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14 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Idk how you could’ve missed my point anymore, the coaches and athletes of the wrestling world are not racist, the colleges as institutions that teach kids now that the country is evil and racist, are in fact themselves probably the biggest problem.

but if the wrestling world is racist as say and “systemic” in nature, then they would never have accepted AE in the first place because not only is he not white he’s a refugee too, but in fact the total opposite is the case, he already has a fan club 

the wrestling world wouldn’t have Jordan Burroughs as the epitome of the sport, racist systems don’t allow that, your either naivety or ignorance to what racism actually is and looks like is astonishing 

if Anthony Cassar wasn’t good at wrestling he probably wouldn’t have went to penn state or got any type of aid either, your point makes no sense . If JB was a B+ student and Anthony Cassar was an A- student with the same test scores applying to the same school at the same time JB would get it before Cassar, but your implying it’s systemic against JB

The only point you made is your delusional 

So your response to a two hour long video of the most notable black wrestlers in the country detailing their personal experiences with racism within the sport is to simply discount it and claim that coaches and athletes of the wrestling world are not racist? Don't you see how you discounting their experiences is a problem?  

And have you missed the response to AE?  Many seem to do nothing but complain about his age, even now that he is out of high school and in college.  He definitely hasn't been accepted as you describe. 

We also had one of the top wrestlers in the country just a couple weeks ago come out with a claim that people with dark skin thrive closer to the equator, and he was definitely not making a point about skin cancer rates and vitamin D.  

But like I said, most importantly you seem to have completely ignored the two hour long video that this thread is based on.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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@matts1w, I have a a couple questions for you,

Please let us know who all the black people are and who all the white people are that you are referring to. Also let us know where you are getting the information that most Asian people find 'Oriental" offensive.

Edited by Lurker

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16 hours ago, 152lbs said:

And making ignorant assumptions based on someone's race is racist.  Thanks for making my point.

Dagestanis are great at wrestling.

Iranians are great at underhooks.

Dam I must be a racist

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

We also had one of the top wrestlers in the country just a couple weeks ago come out with a claim that people with dark skin thrive closer to the equator, and he was definitely not making a point about skin cancer rates and vitamin D.  

What Dake said was dumb as **** but don’t try to twist it. He also said white people do better further from the equator. There was no malicious intent the dude is from Ithaca, where anti racism has been the norm for much longer than rest of country

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38 minutes ago, nyum said:

What Dake said was dumb as **** but don’t try to twist it. He also said white people do better further from the equator. There was no malicious intent the dude is from Ithaca, where anti racism has been the norm for much longer than rest of country

Yes, in other words, people with light skin do better in the U.S./Canada/Europe, while people with dark skin do better in South America/Africa. It is absolute BS and he said it as if it was obvious and common knowledge. He may not be directly racist, but the comment definitely was, and I guarantee you that the people who espouse the pseudo-science he believes in are-it's exactly in line with what white nationalist groups believe. I'd chalk it up to ignorance, but he was educated at a very good university and studied sociology-a field that concerns exactly this issue. If you were told that you inherently would have difficulty biologically thriving in your country based on your skin color, don't you see how that would be offensive?

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

Yes, in other words, people with light skin do better in the U.S./Canada/Europe, while people with dark skin do better in South America/Africa. It is absolute BS and he said it as if it was obvious and common knowledge. He may not be directly racist, but the comment definitely was, and I guarantee you that the people who espouse the pseudo-science he believes in are-it's exactly in line with what white nationalist groups believe. I'd chalk it up to ignorance, but he was educated at a very good university and studied sociology-a field that concerns exactly this issue. If you were told that you inherently would have difficulty biologically thriving in your country based on your skin color, don't you see how that would be offensive?

Dake didn’t say anyone would have difficult thriving in a country. 

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32 minutes ago, nyum said:

Dake didn’t say anyone would have difficult thriving in a country. 

Here are some of the quotes. It starts at 39 minutes.  I didn't transcribe the whole thing-just what I found to be notable, so listen for yourself.

https://soundcloud.com/ryan-warner-152069116/129-kyle-dake-2x-world-champ-4x-ncaa-champ

"If you have a light skin tone you can thrive and survive more at higher latitudes.  If you have a darker skin tone you're going to struggle at higher latitudes. There's a mismatch there. There's a lot that goes into it.  You would thrive more closer to the equator." "For the most part. The closer you can get to the equator, especially if you have dark dark skin, it's probably better for you.  But you can make it work."

Now, if you don't think that's offensive, that's your judgement. I think it's basically analogous to what white nationalists espouse (i.e. certain races are best in certain locations) and such a notable person in the wrestling community expressing these beliefs is part of the conversation of racism in the wrestling community. And to reiterate something, I don't think Dake is racist, just that these comments are based on racism. Also they aren't great for recruiting black wrestlers, since Ithaca is pretty far north. Likewise, I don't think everyone who chalks up the success of black athletes to athleticism is racist either-while those types of comments certainly can be. 

 

But there was already a thread on this a month ago and I'd rather not derail this thread from the experiences the athletes in the USAW youtube video said...So I'll probably just move on after this post-I will read your reply though.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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34 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Here are some of the quotes. It starts at 39 minutes.  I didn't transcribe the whole thing-just what I found to be notable, so listen for yourself.

https://soundcloud.com/ryan-warner-152069116/129-kyle-dake-2x-world-champ-4x-ncaa-champ

"If you have a light skin tone you can thrive and survive more at higher latitudes.  If you have a darker skin tone you're going to struggle at higher latitudes. There's a mismatch there. There's a lot that goes into it.  You would thrive more closer to the equator." "For the most part. The closer you can get to the equator, especially if you have dark dark skin, it's probably better for you.  But you can make it work."

Now, if you don't think that's offensive, that's your judgement. I think it's basically analogous to what white nationalists espouse (i.e. certain races are best in certain locations) and such a notable person in the wrestling community expressing these beliefs is part of the conversation of racism in the wrestling community. And to reiterate something, I don't think Dake is racist, just that these comments are based on racism. Also they aren't great for recruiting black wrestlers, since Ithaca is pretty far north. Likewise, I don't think everyone who chalks up the success of black athletes to athleticism is racist either-while those types of comments certainly can be. 

 

But there was already a thread on this a month ago and I'd rather not derail this thread from the experiences the athletes in the USAW youtube video said...So I'll probably just move on after this post-I will read your reply though.

I agree with your post 100%. I don’t espouse to the viewpoints Dake shared and find it laughable that a Cornell grad has fallen for this pseudoscience 

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3 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

@matts1w, I have a a couple questions for you,

Please let us know who all the black people are and who all the white people are that you are referring to. Also let us know where you are getting the information that most Asian people find 'Oriental" offensive.

1.  Um....  What?

2.  Show me where I said offensive. I said "old timey" as in archaic or antique- a word my grandparents would use.  Offensive?  No, but kinda cringy and out of step.  

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23 minutes ago, matts1w said:

1.  Um....  What?

2.  Show me where I said offensive. I said "old timey" as in archaic or antique- a word my grandparents would use.  Offensive?  No, but kinda cringy and out of step.  

1- You're quote: "Amazing how a bunch of white people believe it makes perfect legitimate sense to get together on the interwebs to tell black people the correct ways to define, experience, and react to racism"  I'm just asking how you are identifying the black people from the white people. I realize there are a few that have identified themselves, but for the rest that you are grouping together, how did you come about that?

2- I apologize I was incorrect, it was another that said the term is offensive.  I haven't seen the "most Asians prefer it go to the archaic pile" that you speak of in looking into this particular point, but agreed I misquoted you in saying offensive.

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8 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

The point I was making is if a black kid with marginal grades couldn't play football, there would be much less opportunity for him than somebody who had similar grades and was white. 

This (above) is just wrong.  100%, without question.  See Bakke. 

To say Sanderson and all Mormons are racists is a reprehensible thing to do.  

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@Lurker

Took me a couple seconds with Google.

Also on another note, kinda wrong of y'all to run @Katieout like that. She had relevant points (maybe not the best delivery), but it quickly de-escalated into patronization.

Anyway, I'm probably back to lurking. I really hope this thread doesn't get shut down, I'm actually enjoying the discussion.

Screenshot_20200611-103010_Chrome.jpg

Edited by IfYouAin'tFirstYou'reLast

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