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USA Wrestling--Black Male Athletes' Experience

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On 6/11/2020 at 8:01 AM, Billyhoyle said:

Here are some of the quotes. It starts at 39 minutes.  I didn't transcribe the whole thing-just what I found to be notable, so listen for yourself.

https://soundcloud.com/ryan-warner-152069116/129-kyle-dake-2x-world-champ-4x-ncaa-champ

"If you have a light skin tone you can thrive and survive more at higher latitudes.  If you have a darker skin tone you're going to struggle at higher latitudes. There's a mismatch there. There's a lot that goes into it.  You would thrive more closer to the equator." "For the most part. The closer you can get to the equator, especially if you have dark dark skin, it's probably better for you.  But you can make it work."

Now, if you don't think that's offensive, that's your judgement. I think it's basically analogous to what white nationalists espouse (i.e. certain races are best in certain locations) and such a notable person in the wrestling community expressing these beliefs is part of the conversation of racism in the wrestling community. And to reiterate something, I don't think Dake is racist, just that these comments are based on racism. Also they aren't great for recruiting black wrestlers, since Ithaca is pretty far north. Likewise, I don't think everyone who chalks up the success of black athletes to athleticism is racist either-while those types of comments certainly can be. 

 

But there was already a thread on this a month ago and I'd rather not derail this thread from the experiences the athletes in the USAW youtube video said...So I'll probably just move on after this post-I will read your reply though.

Those are some shockingly dumb comments. Yikes.

Edited by Katie

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32 minutes ago, Katie said:

Those are some shockingly dumb comments. Yikes.

karen... billybob...

those comments are not racist... they are based in evolution and those processes... there is a reason the different amount of melanin in the skin rise and fall based on regions on this planet...

quit looking for the boogie man in everything you see if it does not jive with your narrow view of the world...

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3 hours ago, nyum said:

I agree with your post 100%. I don’t espouse to the viewpoints Dake shared and find it laughable that a Cornell grad has fallen for this pseudoscience 

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so these areas cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

Edited by Cooch1
more info

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1 minute ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

BINGO!!

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2 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

get out of here with your real science... there is no room for that kind of nonsense...

we debate on emotion only here...

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2 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

RACIST!!

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It’s also dumb to equate “thriving” with one of the sources of Vitamin D.

But I’m not shocked that posters here are that dumb. 

Edited by Katie

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7 minutes ago, Katie said:

It’s also shockingly dumb to equate “thriving” with one of the sources of Vitamin D. But I’m not shocked that posters here are that dumb. 

karen...

this is your rebuttal?

really?

you are nothing if not consistent...

again, thank you for all you do to keep that bar nice and low...

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43 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so these areas cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

A lot of what you just wrote, my dermatologist told me too.

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3 minutes ago, jchapman said:

A lot of what you just wrote, my dermatologist told me too.

that's because it is not a secret...

we developed and adapted as a species to best THRIVE in the environment we lived in at the time...

just like every other species on this planet...

modern society has removed most of those blocks to we as a species THRIVING in different regions/climates...

now almost any human born can survive to breeding age, so, we end up with a bunch of karens running around lowering the gene pool at every turn...

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1 hour ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so these areas cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

And I agree with this too :)

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5 hours ago, TFBJR said:

This (above) is just wrong.  100%, without question.  See Bakke. 

To say Sanderson and all Mormons are racists is a reprehensible thing to do.  

You are aware that the Mormon church and BYU nearly got yeeted by the NCAA because they pretty much thought black people were cursed and evil right?  Schools were beginning to boycott playing them, and there were protests against them that had some bad consequences like the Wyoming Black 13.  Even though this was the late 70's, that kind of thinking in the church didn't just disappear.  Not all Mormons are racist, but having something like that as part of their official doctrine for so long isn't something that goes away very easily. It's not official anymore, but unofficially there is still a lot of racism within the church. Call it casual, institutionalized, whatever, but it's there.  It's the same with a lot of coaches and places in the midwest, they don't particularly care for minorities unless they can do something for them, like win at wrestling or whatever.  I've heard it and seen it up close both out in the open and privately how some coaches and prominent wrestlers feel about certain minorities. 

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3 hours ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so these areas cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

He was not talking about simply needing to take a vitamin D supplement or wear sunblock/cover up to limit skin cancer risk. He was talking about “thriving” and being “better off” living closer to the equator. If what you describe is what he meant, he would have simply simply suggested that black people may be at a higher risk for vitamin D deficiency and should consider taking a vitamin D supplement. That’s not what he said-he clearly thinks there is more to it than that (there isn’t). If you think his comments were justified, you need to examine your own beliefs (they are not backed by science)-maybe ask a scientist that you know whether there is more to this issue than possibly needing to take a vitamin D supplement (btw, many white ppl who spend their days working indoors may need this supplement too). 

I’d say I’m surprised by the number of ppl who agree with the comments and are expressing those beliefs, but I’m not because of the USAW video posted in the beginning of this thread. There absolutely is a problem within the community.

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3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

He was not talking about simply needing to take a vitamin D supplement or wear sunblock/cover up to limit skin cancer risk. He was talking about “thriving” and being “better off” living closer to the equator. If what you describe is what he meant, he would have simply simply suggested that black people may be at a higher risk for vitamin D deficiency and should consider taking a vitamin D supplement. That’s not what he said-he clearly thinks there is more to it than that (there isn’t). If you think his comments were justified, you need to examine your own beliefs (they are not backed by science)-maybe ask a scientist that you know whether there is more to this issue than possibly needing to take a vitamin D supplement (btw, many white ppl who spend their days working indoors may need this supplement too). 

I’d say I’m surprised by the number of ppl who agree with the comments and are expressing those beliefs, but I’m not because of the USAW video posted in the beginning of this thread. There absolutely is a problem within the community.

oh billyboy...

you can find any monster if you look hard enough... and you have proven that you can find evil and terrors lurking everywhere... the boogie bug is a prime example... and this is another...

to be 100% fair, i never bothered to listen to dake's interview because i was not really compelled to, but, i am going to do it now... mainly because your "transcription" is entirely harmless and speaks of science, evolution, and biology and not racism like you so desperately want it to be... of course, you so desperately the boogie bug to actually be a thing as well, so, no surprise there...

if we have found anything throughout history it is that you can be burned at the stake, hung in a cage and have your flesh ripped off with burning hot tongs, drowned, stoned, imprisoned, social castrated, shunned, or just casually called a racist on a forum if you believe differently than someone...

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1 hour ago, TripNSweep said:

You are aware that the Mormon church and BYU nearly got yeeted by the NCAA because they pretty much thought black people were cursed and evil right?  Schools were beginning to boycott playing them, and there were protests against them that had some bad consequences like the Wyoming Black 13.  Even though this was the late 70's, that kind of thinking in the church didn't just disappear.  Not all Mormons are racist, but having something like that as part of their official doctrine for so long isn't something that goes away very easily. It's not official anymore, but unofficially there is still a lot of racism within the church. Call it casual, institutionalized, whatever, but it's there.  It's the same with a lot of coaches and places in the midwest, they don't particularly care for minorities unless they can do something for them, like win at wrestling or whatever.  I've heard it and seen it up close both out in the open and privately how some coaches and prominent wrestlers feel about certain minorities. 

Let's see if I get this right: 

50+ years ago the U of Wy bounced these 14 guys, not BYU, because they wanted to silently protest The Mormon church policy of barring African-Americans from pursuing the priesthood. Ipso facto Cael is a racist?  All Mormons today 5 decades later are racist?  The preponderance are racists half a century later?  What exactly is your point here?    

Following this sage logic would lead me to judge all members of a religion (or race?) based on individual acts from long ago.  Is that what you are promoting? 

Hmmm, there is a word for that - I just can't seem to bring it up to the front of my brain right now. 

Get a mirror.  See the problem?  

 

Edited by TFBJR
typo

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2 hours ago, TFBJR said:

Let's see if I get this right: 

50+ years ago the U of Wy bounced these 14 guys, not BYU, because they wanted to silently protest The Mormon church policy of barring African-Americans from pursuing the priesthood. Ipso facto Cael is a racist?  All Mormons today 5 decades later are racist?  The preponderance are racists half a century later?  What exactly is your point here?    

Following this sage logic would lead me to judge all members of a religion (or race?) based on individual acts from long ago.  Is that what you are promoting? 

Hmmm, there is a word for that - I just can't seem to bring it up to the front of my brain right now. 

Get a mirror.  See the problem?  

 

Discrimination based on race was outlawed with the civil rights act passing in the 60's, but that attitude towards blacks still exists in the south and other places. The doctrine may no longer be part of things the church officially condones or says anymore, but that doesn't mean the same attitude towards certain minorities has just disappeared. I know plenty of Mormons, and like any other sect or group there's good ones and bad ones, but many of the old guard still believe in that doctrine and still abide by it unofficially.  I'm not going to name names or how I know, but I will say that Cael isn't somebody who a lot of black wrestlers wouldn't feel too comfortable with. Look at the Bubba Jenkins thing and that sort of tells you where he is on that sort of thing, but that's the tip of the iceburg. 

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15 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

Discrimination based on race was outlawed with the civil rights act passing in the 60's, but that attitude towards blacks still exists in the south and other places. The doctrine may no longer be part of things the church officially condones or says anymore, but that doesn't mean the same attitude towards certain minorities has just disappeared. I know plenty of Mormons, and like any other sect or group there's good ones and bad ones, but many of the old guard still believe in that doctrine and still abide by it unofficially.  I'm not going to name names or how I know, but I will say that Cael isn't somebody who a lot of black wrestlers wouldn't feel too comfortable with. Look at the Bubba Jenkins thing and that sort of tells you where he is on that sort of thing, but that's the tip of the iceburg. 

Wait are you saying bubba Jenkins leaving is a reflection of cael having an underlying religious based racial bias? Not trying to argue I’m seriously asking because I mark hall just said cael is amazing and it’s the best decision he could have made and Mr. Brooks has shared a similar view 

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51 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Wait are you saying bubba Jenkins leaving is a reflection of cael having an underlying religious based racial bias? Not trying to argue I’m seriously asking because I mark hall just said cael is amazing and it’s the best decision he could have made and Mr. Brooks has shared a similar view 

Yes. Not saying that every black wrestler is going to dislike Cael, some may but go there because they know he's one of the best in college now, so they want to get that. I've personally heard some recruits/parents say that even though the wrestling there is top notch, they wouldn't go there for other reasons, and they aren't subtle about it. Cael will get his guys who want to be there and do well. Guys who go there and don't fit in or don't do things his way will leave, it's that simple. 

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2 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

Yes. Not saying that every black wrestler is going to dislike Cael, some may but go there because they know he's one of the best in college now, so they want to get that. I've personally heard some recruits/parents say that even though the wrestling there is top notch, they wouldn't go there for other reasons, and they aren't subtle about it. Cael will get his guys who want to be there and do well. Guys who go there and don't fit in or don't do things his way will leave, it's that simple. 

That’s not racist. That’s a demonstration of leadership. Head coach is the guy in charge and things should be done his way.

And did you ever see Bubba at any of the ASU practices? not the guy I would want on my team if I was trying to build a TEAM culture. And it’s obvious he would never fit in with Cael’s theme of gratitude 
 

imo recruits/parents saying that is more of a deflection after being passed up for a better prospect “even if he didn’t recruit me I wouldn’t have gone” .... “Ya ok” *eye roll* 

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1 minute ago, nyum said:

That’s not racist. That’s a demonstration of leadership. Head coach is the guy in charge and things should be done his way.

And did you ever see Bubba at any of the ASU practices? not the guy I would want on my team if I was trying to build a TEAM culture. And it’s obvious he would never fit in with Cael’s theme of gratitude 
 

imo recruits/parents saying that is more of a deflection after being passed up for a better prospect “even if he didn’t recruit me I wouldn’t have gone” .... “Ya ok” *eye roll* 

I did actually. Wrestling is an individual sport, and sometimes you need to let people do certain things. Gable was a master of doing things like that because the 10 guys in the lineup all don't operate the same way. Being a strict disciplinarian like that yeah you'll get some guys, but not everybody responds to that kind of thing. I can attest to a few things I'd overheard where parents discussed PSU and one said absolutely not and had talked his son into not even entertaining the idea. Also from asking Bubba about it once, you get a real idea of how things went down. 

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8 hours ago, Cooch1 said:

Maybe this isn't taught at Cornell, but light skinned people thrive at higher latitudes as there is less direct sunlight and consequently less need for protective melanin in skin chemistry. This allows for better absorption of vitamin D which aids in the conversion of calcium into bone structure. Eskimos are heavily covered from the cold, and from the sun, which prevents vitamin D absoption.  Though not naturally present in most foods, vitamin D occurs heavily in whale blubber to make up the difference.  Equatorial people have developed darker skin from the increase in melanin which naturally acts to filter and protect from burning by increasing the absoption of harmful rays as well as prevention of overdosing from vitamin D. Melanin is to brown and black skin as carotin is to oriental or yellow skin. Note also that dark skinned people have pink palms and bottoms of feet due to no sun exposure and so these areas cannot be protected by melanin or carotin. There is also a counterpart to this in the darkening of woods from the northern white pines to equatorial ebony black. In short, there are no races or classes of people. We're all of the same family; we just look different and looks can deceive.

Define thrive. Genuinely curious. Thrive mentally, emotionally, physically? Hormones function better? All of those things? Their fingernails grow faster?

If it is simply a vitamin d issue, humans have a much more varied and high calorie diet than we used to have. Could that difference have been made up through diet? Most people also spend a lot more time inside than we used to. Does that have any effect at all?

Also is there any source for this idea? I googled it and couldnt find it.

I am very wary of any idea that states something vague like "thrive". Any legit scientist would be ready to clarify that, which is why Id love to see a source

Edited by russelscout

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On 6/9/2020 at 4:59 PM, tightwaist said:

If you see where wrestling has thrived, historically, it is typically in more rural areas of the country. So, not too surprised with this...sadly.  

I have witnessed far more rascism in cities than rural PA.

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Just dropping in here with a couple brief thoughts on the relationship between race and science.

Mainly because: there's been some logic thrown around on this thread that goes something like, 'it's science, so it can't be racist'.

The reality: science has been used to support racism and race-based policy for centuries. 

Sometimes it's perpetuated by scientists themselves (e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Revised-Expanded/dp/0393314251). Sometimes taken up and twisted by demagogues: see the history of 20th century genetics and eugenics ala WWII era Germany. These are just two examples, but there are others, continuing on into the present day.

With that said, I'd like to be clear on a couple points:

1) I'm not talking here about what's in people's heart of hearts (including KD's); I'm talking about discourse that has literally been used by avowedly racist individuals and political parties throughout history to justify horrific acts (including chattel slavery).

2) Statements that use ‘science’ as a counterpoint to racism (e.g., It's biology, it can't be racist!) simply don't hold up from a historical or logical point of view.  

Here's a point: you may not be a racist if you say Dake was simply talking about 'science, evolution, and biology and not racism'; but, you are tapping into a very similar, if not the same, logic that has been used by racists--including the national socialist party--to justify and perpetuate actions like human enslavement and mass genocide.

So the question: if you use reasoning that racists use, and use often, does that make you a racist?  Maybe not. But if it were me, I’d do some hard thinking.

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46 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

Just dropping in here with a couple brief thoughts on the relationship between race and science.

Mainly because: there's been some logic thrown around on this thread that goes something like, 'it's science, so it can't be racist'.

The reality: science has been used to support racism and race-based policy for centuries. 

Sometimes it's perpetuated by scientists themselves (e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Revised-Expanded/dp/0393314251). Sometimes taken up and twisted by demagogues: see the history of 20th century genetics and eugenics ala WWII era Germany. These are just two examples, but there are others, continuing on into the present day.

With that said, I'd like to be clear on a couple points:

1) I'm not talking here about what's in people's heart of hearts (including KD's); I'm talking about discourse that has literally been used by avowedly racist individuals and political parties throughout history to justify horrific acts (including chattel slavery).

2) Statements that use ‘science’ as a counterpoint to racism (e.g., It's biology, it can't be racist!) simply don't hold up from a historical or logical point of view.  

Here's a point: you may not be a racist if you say Dake was simply talking about 'science, evolution, and biology and not racism'; but, you are tapping into a very similar, if not the same, logic that has been used by racists--including the national socialist party--to justify and perpetuate actions like human enslavement and mass genocide.

So the question: if you use reasoning that racists use, and use often, does that make you a racist?  Maybe not. But if it were me, I’d do some hard thinking.

So we shouldn’t use or believe science because in the past racists have twisted the truths of science to fit their own moral compass?

Edited by jchapman

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