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USA Wrestling--Black Male Athletes' Experience

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I’ve got some hard news:  people are different in genotype and therefore phenotype.  This is a fact.  How people choose to make ethical and moral judgements based on these differences can be debated, but not genetics.

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15 minutes ago, jchapman said:

So we shouldn’t use or believe science because in the past racists have twisted the truths of science to fit their own moral compass?

can't use science...

damn sure can't use religion...

then only thing you can use is grandstanding and virtue signaling by only the finest purveyors of self loathing...

**licks boot**

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19 minutes ago, jchapman said:

So we shouldn’t use or believe science because in the past racists have twisted the truths of science to fit their own moral compass?

Hey Chapman--thanks for the response.

Just to follow up: I want to start by saying that I'm on the side of science when it comes to most things (e.g., environmental policy).

But, from what I've read and studied, the relationship between modern 'science'--which is a relatively recent phenomenon in human history--and racism--which is about as old as human history--is fairly vexed. That's my opinion, but I'd say it's well established in research circles.

To your other post: I'm not suggesting that 'facts' don't exist or that the practice of genetics isn't effective. (I'll admit that advances in gene editing scare me just a bit.) I'm definitely not saying that we shouldn't draw on different sciences in our decision making.

The point I'm circling around relates specifically to how different sciences--like molecular biology and/or genetics--frame the world, shape the social imaginary, and eventually seep their way into our discourse and thinking about each other (the latter two of which are inextricably related). I know I'm not getting at all the nuance here, but that'd be a book, and many conversations besides.

On a personal note, I've  been frequenting these boards for years, and while I don't post a whole lot--too little time!--I feel compelled in the moment to take time out of my day and join in the fray. The impetus is pretty simple, and the reason I started this thread: I listened to the USA Wrestling pod re: the experience of black athletes and was inspired to do something. If any one of those men happens to read this post, I'd like to thank them for their leadership, on the mat and off.

In the end, my take may not mean much some people, but even one random member of this community reads a post like this, and it affirms their personhood, or emboldens them to do something--here, there, wherever--I feel OK about what I'm committing to this forum. And I wish you well.

 

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ok... i just finished the dake interview...

all i really got to say is...

 

grow the fuk up people...

anyone wanting to make that about race needs some real strife in their life...

dake has a belief that we evolved (yes, we all evolved from one source... evolution dummies) to our current physical traits that best suited the environments we found ourselves in... it makes perfect sense that if we tried to duplicate the environments of our ancestors who survived by being the the strongest and best suited to those specific environments, it would help our specific body make ups perform at their optimum levels...

you don't have to necessarily prescribe to that, but, to call it racist is just irresponsible...

and the simple fact of the matter is, when he changed his life style and his training habits, he quit getting injured and has become a 2X world champion...

 

racist... anyone who really thinks that should be ashamed of themselves...

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1 hour ago, jchapman said:

So we shouldn’t use or believe science because in the past racists have twisted the truths of science to fit their own moral compass?

Well people, scientists, used to be damn sure the shape and bumps of your skull could determine intelligence and character traits. Its not really shocking they believed the european race was superior based on this science. We now know thats not true. It was pseudoscience based on a BS theory.

The fact that certain races "thrive" in certain areas of the world without anyone being able to clarify what "thrive" means in this context sounds like pseudoscience to me. Maybe its worth getting some clarification from an expert or looking at 1 or 2 studies confirming it instead of taking a few posters and a wrestlers word for it.

 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Well people, scientists, used to be damn sure the shape and bumps of your skull could determine intelligence and character traits. Its not really shocking they believed the european race was superior based on this science. We now know thats not true. It was pseudoscience based on a BS theory.

The fact that certain races "thrive" in certain areas of the world without anyone being able to clarify what "thrive" means in this context sounds like pseudoscience to me. Maybe its worth getting some clarification from an expert or looking at 1 or 2 studies confirming it instead of taking a few posters and a wrestlers word for it.

 

ugh...

"thrive" in the context of this discussion means they survived long enough to procreate...

which. if still was the case today, most of you would not be here...

 

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Well people, scientists, used to be damn sure the shape and bumps of your skull could determine intelligence and character traits. Its not really shocking they believed the european race was superior based on this science. We now know thats not true. It was pseudoscience based on a BS theory.

The fact that certain races "thrive" in certain areas of the world without anyone being able to clarify what "thrive" means in this context sounds like pseudoscience to me. Maybe its worth getting some clarification from an expert or looking at 1 or 2 studies confirming it instead of taking a few posters and a wrestlers word for it.

 

I just want to clarify that scientists don’t believe the racial BS pseudoscience that KD parroted about races being best off living in particular latitudes. Yes, people with light skin need to be more aware of uv exposure for skin cancer and people with darker skin may be more likely to require vitamin D supplements...But these two facts alone do not mean that somebody is more or less likely to thrive in a particular area-it just creates a couple factors to be mindful of. It’s interesting that so many here seem to agree with those thoughts-the same ppl who ignore the stories posted in the USAW video and want to act like racism isn’t a problem in the sport. 

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4 hours ago, russelscout said:

Well people, scientists, used to be damn sure the shape and bumps of your skull could determine intelligence and character traits. Its not really shocking they believed the european race was superior based on this science. We now know thats not true. It was pseudoscience based on a BS theory.

The fact that certain races "thrive" in certain areas of the world without anyone being able to clarify what "thrive" means in this context sounds like pseudoscience to me. Maybe its worth getting some clarification from an expert or looking at 1 or 2 studies confirming it instead of taking a few posters and a wrestlers word for it.

 

I am speaking to science in general, not this very specific interpretation of science that Dake (a non-scientist) has expanded upon.

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BTW "thrive" means to grow vigorously or FLOURISH, according to Merriam-Webster. 
So I'll clarify my post. 

As we all know vitamin D is essential to bone strength. Vitamin D converts calcium into bone. Vitamin D doesn't come from the sun directly. The action of sunlight (UV rays) on the skin is what produces vitamin D.  This is somewhat similar to the complex process of plant photosynthesis and plant growth, but with the help of chlorophyll. 

Vitamin D is one of several vitamins which we can overdose. In hot climates, vitamin D is plentiful or excessive. Over millenia, people in these areas evolved protective filters made of darker and darker skin pigments for protection against burning and vitamin D overdose. 

In the other direction, to the far North where there is less sun and less need of protection, skin pigmentation gradually disappeared allowing for maximum absorption of vitamin D for bone growth. Long periods of darkness and heavy clothing put Eskimos at a disadvantage, except for the fact that they ate lots of whale blubber that, conveniently, is concentrated in vitamin D.

People everywhere need vitamin D. Nature had to step in to make humans a success. Without vitamin D we could not survive or flourish or thrive; our skeletal structure would disintegrate. All the above is hard-science, not psuedo-science. Science is evolving. Scientists can make mistakes but, unlike politicians, they move forward by learning from those mistakes. 

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15 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

BTW "thrive" means to grow vigorously or FLOURISH, according to Merriam-Webster. 
So I'll clarify my post. 

As we all know vitamin D is essential to bone strength. Vitamin D converts calcium into bone. Vitamin D doesn't come from the sun directly. The action of sunlight (UV rays) on the skin is what produces vitamin D.  This is somewhat similar to the complex process of plant photosynthesis and plant growth, but with the help of chlorophyll. 

Vitamin D is one of several vitamins which we can overdose. In hot climates, vitamin D is plentiful or excessive. Over millenia, people in these areas evolved protective filters made of darker and darker skin pigments for protection against burning and vitamin D overdose. 

In the other direction, to the far North where there is less sun and less need of protection, skin pigmentation gradually disappeared allowing for maximum absorption of vitamin D for bone growth. Long periods of darkness and heavy clothing put Eskimos at a disadvantage, except for the fact that they ate lots of whale blubber that, conveniently, is concentrated in vitamin D.

People everywhere need vitamin D. Nature had to step in to make humans a success. Without vitamin D we could not survive or flourish or thrive; our skeletal structure would disintegrate. All the above is hard-science, not psuedo-science. Science is evolving. Scientists can make mistakes but, unlike politicians, they move forward by learning from those mistakes. 

This is the 21st  century.  Africans iiving in Scandinavia drink a glass of vitamin D fortified milk per day and they are thriving. 

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2 hours ago, Cooch1 said:

BTW "thrive" means to grow vigorously or FLOURISH, according to Merriam-Webster. 
So I'll clarify my post. 

As we all know vitamin D is essential to bone strength. Vitamin D converts calcium into bone. Vitamin D doesn't come from the sun directly. The action of sunlight (UV rays) on the skin is what produces vitamin D.  This is somewhat similar to the complex process of plant photosynthesis and plant growth, but with the help of chlorophyll. 

Vitamin D is one of several vitamins which we can overdose. In hot climates, vitamin D is plentiful or excessive. Over millenia, people in these areas evolved protective filters made of darker and darker skin pigments for protection against burning and vitamin D overdose. 

In the other direction, to the far North where there is less sun and less need of protection, skin pigmentation gradually disappeared allowing for maximum absorption of vitamin D for bone growth. Long periods of darkness and heavy clothing put Eskimos at a disadvantage, except for the fact that they ate lots of whale blubber that, conveniently, is concentrated in vitamin D.

People everywhere need vitamin D. Nature had to step in to make humans a success. Without vitamin D we could not survive or flourish or thrive; our skeletal structure would disintegrate. All the above is hard-science, not psuedo-science. Science is evolving. Scientists can make mistakes but, unlike politicians, they move forward by learning from those mistakes. 

A dictionary definition? A scientists who specializes in health and human performance would have tested it and had answers to the very predictable questions I asked. Science isnt some just random idea. It requires that hypotheses are tested and scrutinized thoroughly through the scientific method. Its amazing that people tout science without understanding what that actually means.

I have yet to see anything that would be called hard science. You are only talking about vitamin d. Ok, what about supplementation? Is the "thriving" significant compared to those who are not "thriving". How was it measured?

Edited by russelscout

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8 hours ago, LJB said:

ugh...

"thrive" in the context of this discussion means they survived long enough to procreate...

which. if still was the case today, most of you would not be here...

 

This makes no sense. 

Edited by russelscout

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14 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Discrimination based on race was outlawed with the civil rights act passing in the 60's, but that attitude towards blacks still exists in the south and other places. The doctrine may no longer be part of things the church officially condones or says anymore, but that doesn't mean the same attitude towards certain minorities has just disappeared. I know plenty of Mormons, and like any other sect or group there's good ones and bad ones, but many of the old guard still believe in that doctrine and still abide by it unofficially.  I'm not going to name names or how I know, but I will say that Cael isn't somebody who a lot of black wrestlers wouldn't feel too comfortable with. Look at the Bubba Jenkins thing and that sort of tells you where he is on that sort of thing, but that's the tip of the iceburg. 

Lets recap: 

A black kid with marginal grades = much less opportunity for him than somebody who had similar grades and was white - Absolutely false - not even arguable

Lots of coaches say racist things. It's part of the culture.   Part of the culture of being a wrestling coach - really?   They generally seem like really fine men - my error. 

You can't say racism doesn't exist in wrestling because it does.  No one is saying that - you are slandering Cael specifically and all Mormons in general as racists.   

It's part of the culture of wrestling.  Oh, not just wrestling coaches but wrestling as a whole?  Got it. 

Coaches who are from smaller towns in the midwest and they just have that attitude - again - WTF??  That damn Midwest. 

That attitude towards blacks still exists in the south and other places. That damn South.  And don't get me started on those Other Places!!

Looking at the Bubba Jenkins/Penn State thing, you don't really have to look to deep to see racism.  Absolutely.  No need to look deep when you can just make up slander to fit your world-view. 

Trust me, with Sanderson's religion, that kind of stuff is ingrained into that culture.  No thanks.

I even had a prominent wrestler once tell me he didn't think black people were developed enough culturally to hold important positions and shouldn't be allowed to teach.  That unsubstantiated anecdote absolutely proves a cultural norm.

Guys who are NCAA champions, world team members, All Americans, or respected coaches saying this kind of stuff.   That is a lot of reference points.  I hope you straightened each of these cretins out and let them know that you would not stand for that type of nonsense.

I know plenty of Mormons, and like any other sect or group there's good ones and bad ones - So not all Mormons then? More like representative of society as a whole?  All wrestling coaches or again a representative slice?  All wrestlers?  .......  You get the point about extrapolation from a limited sample being a bad thing I assume.

I'm not going to name names or how I know, but I will say that Cael isn't somebody who a lot of black wrestlers wouldn't feel too comfortable with. Look at the Bubba Jenkins thing and that sort of tells you where he is on that sort of thing, but that's the tip of the iceburg.  And we end up here - unsubstantiated slander via a twisted double negative and misspelled word salad.

After reviewing this opus, the hardest part of all of this to believe is that anyone would cheat off of your schoolwork.  That is truly poor and inexcusable judgment. 

Try harder.  Don't besmirch people whom you don't know.   Want to make a difference?  Get out there and do it.  Be the change; don't virtue signal at others. Contribute and build; don't tear down.  

 

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I feel compelled to post on this topic.

For most of my adult life I have been a white guy working in urban settings and therefore among minority communities. My first real experience was as the Dean of Students at St. Anthony HS in Jersey City. Later I was a director for two different Boys and Girls Club organizations. Later still, those experiences would lead me to marry two of my passions, wrestling and kids in urban America, and become one of the founders of Beat the Streets in NYC.

As my experience in urban America continued, I came to understand that the everyday life of people of color, whether they are poor or rich, urban, suburban, or rural, is different than mine. My understandings on this have evolved from someone coming from a typical suburban conservative background to seeing the world as I see it now. I’d hardly call myself a liberal, but I’ve been awakened to the variety of how different life is for people who are not me.

I distinctly remember, when I was running the Hoboken Boys and Girls Club, that we had a 5 year old Hispanic girl who was he same age as my blonde haired, blue eyed niece. I remember thinking that while my niece was learning how to read on her parents’ knees, our B&GC girl was learning from her brothers and sisters how to safely navigate the trip home from the club through the streets and up the elevator (or stairs since the elevators were often out of order) in the Housing project she lived in. Both 5 year old’s learning skills needed for the future but with vastly different priorities.

Beat the Streets became the tool used to try to fill the advantage gap, like the one that that my niece and her friends enjoyed, for the kids who came from lesser advantaged situations, using the sport of wrestling as the vehicle. 

The following is what I posted on my Facebook page right after the incident in Minneapolis, edited slightly for this forum.

“People that read my posts know I stay away from taking sides on most things political on any forum. But this is not political. This transcends all that is political and is about right and wrong, not about right and left.

I can't pretend to know what it's like to live in the skin of a man of color. That would be arrogant at best.

I hear the word "privileged" being used a lot. I understand what is meant but I sometimes think it's the wrong word because there's no real word that means the opposite in this context. I think the real word is "advantaged." I absolutely have an advantage over my friends who are not white. But I have enough friends, former students, wrestlers I’ve coached and colleagues who are men of color that I know that their everyday fear and anxiety is as real as it gets. They will be pre-judged before I will. I will get the benefit of the doubt before they do. And I know that all I can do in that regard is commit to not doing that pre-judging myself and encourage others with the same advantage to do the same.

This morning I read a post from one of the Beat the Streets wrestlers we took to Fargo when I was in New York. It was in my opinion a gut wrenching plea for civility. And that wrestler is the nephew of one of the most infamously reported black men killed by rogue cops for no reason in history. Yet his appeal wasn't anger. It was an appeal to the better person inside each of us. All of us. This is what he posted: ‘God have mercy on us, Lord you are the one who change hearts and make good out of Evil please guide these misguided officers to the right path and protect us instead of harming us.’

I pray for the family of George Floyd. And I pray that someday those friends and colleagues I mention above won't have to leave their homes and wonder if today is the day they have to deal with this themselves. Yes, I have an opinion on the looting and riots. No. I'm not going to speak to riots and looting in this post. They are another separate issue.

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I'd like to add something to Bill_Crum's post (we're old friends and have worked together often even somewhat with B&G and Beat The Streets).

For me what I've noticed is how differently (and I'm going to paint with a very broad brush here) whites and blacks seem to react to issues of race or racism. If something happens that can be said to negatively affect blacks, the blacks are likely to say- THAT'S racist!. To which the whites usually respond - I'M not a racist. There's a difference. One is thinking more of the result and the other the cause. 

To oversimplify, I'm going to categorize racism at 3 levels.

1. Aggressive, intentional (almost KKK level) actions. This seems to be where most whites stop thinking about their actions. If I'm not in this category, I'm ok.

2. Possibly unconscious reactions to people of color. Boy is that guy athletic!  Also, thinking that the whole race should think the same way about everything. People who quote one black that agrees with their view of the world and think all blacks should agree. And I should add this phenomenon applies to a lot of non-racial arguments. That republican thinks this- why don't they all?

3. Old rules, laws and ways of living that years ago were based on clear racism that have become ways we do things now that this generation has no idea of the repercussions or the origins. For example, people tend to live and do business with people of the same color. We all know why it started. But if we simply broke them up it might be a good thing several generations down the road but people are living with their friends now, moving them will force them to reacquaint. I don't have a solution.

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16 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I'd like to add something to Bill_Crum's post (we're old friends and have worked together often even somewhat with B&G and Beat The Streets).

For me what I've noticed is how differently (and I'm going to paint with a very broad brush here) whites and blacks seem to react to issues of race or racism. If something happens that can be said to negatively affect blacks, the blacks are likely to say- THAT'S racist!. To which the whites usually respond - I'M not a racist. There's a difference. One is thinking more of the result and the other the cause. 

To oversimplify, I'm going to categorize racism at 3 levels.

1. Aggressive, intentional (almost KKK level) actions. This seems to be where most whites stop thinking about their actions. If I'm not in this category, I'm ok.

2. Possibly unconscious reactions to people of color. Boy is that guy athletic!  Also, thinking that the whole race should think the same way about everything. People who quote one black that agrees with their view of the world and think all blacks should agree. And I should add this phenomenon applies to a lot of non-racial arguments. That republican thinks this- why don't they all?

3. Old rules, laws and ways of living that years ago were based on clear racism that have become ways we do things now that this generation has no idea of the repercussions or the origins. For example, people tend to live and do business with people of the same color. We all know why it started. But if we simply broke them up it might be a good thing several generations down the road but people are living with their friends now, moving them will force them to reacquaint. I don't have a solution.

#3 goes alot along with what my thoughts have been over the last few weeks.  We need not make changing the people in power our top priority.  A priority sure, but we are older folks, already set in our ways, much more difficult to change.  Doesn't mean some change can't happen, but i feel We need to focus on our kids, conversations at the dinner table, taking them places where they can hear and see things from a different "culture".  In my opinion that's how we can develop permanent change. They are the policy makers, law enforcement, business leaders, and policy makers of tomorrow.  And then they teach their kids, and so on.

Edited by Lurker

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Finally someone who is willing to offer suggestions other than throwing out the favorite buzz words of the day ("privileged" "advantaged" "unconscious bias", etc.). 

Side note: I do understand those words and don't necessarily disagree with them, just have yet to hear or read what I personally am supposed to do with that to make a change for the betterment of society and reduce racism

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3 hours ago, bill_crum said:

I feel compelled to post on this topic.

For most of my adult life I have been a white guy working in urban settings and therefore among minority communities. My first real experience was as the Dean of Students at St. Anthony HS in Jersey City. Later I was a director for two different Boys and Girls Club organizations. Later still, those experiences would lead me to marry two of my passions, wrestling and kids in urban America, and become one of the founders of Beat the Streets in NYC.

As my experience in urban America continued, I came to understand that the everyday life of people of color, whether they are poor or rich, urban, suburban, or rural, is different than mine. My understandings on this have evolved from someone coming from a typical suburban conservative background to seeing the world as I see it now. I’d hardly call myself a liberal, but I’ve been awakened to the variety of how different life is for people who are not me.

I distinctly remember, when I was running the Hoboken Boys and Girls Club, that we had a 5 year old Hispanic girl who was he same age as my blonde haired, blue eyed niece. I remember thinking that while my niece was learning how to read on her parents’ knees, our B&GC girl was learning from her brothers and sisters how to safely navigate the trip home from the club through the streets and up the elevator (or stairs since the elevators were often out of order) in the Housing project she lived in. Both 5 year old’s learning skills needed for the future but with vastly different priorities.

Beat the Streets became the tool used to try to fill the advantage gap, like the one that that my niece and her friends enjoyed, for the kids who came from lesser advantaged situations, using the sport of wrestling as the vehicle. 

The following is what I posted on my Facebook page right after the incident in Minneapolis, edited slightly for this forum.

“People that read my posts know I stay away from taking sides on most things political on any forum. But this is not political. This transcends all that is political and is about right and wrong, not about right and left.

I can't pretend to know what it's like to live in the skin of a man of color. That would be arrogant at best.

I hear the word "privileged" being used a lot. I understand what is meant but I sometimes think it's the wrong word because there's no real word that means the opposite in this context. I think the real word is "advantaged." I absolutely have an advantage over my friends who are not white. But I have enough friends, former students, wrestlers I’ve coached and colleagues who are men of color that I know that their everyday fear and anxiety is as real as it gets. They will be pre-judged before I will. I will get the benefit of the doubt before they do. And I know that all I can do in that regard is commit to not doing that pre-judging myself and encourage others with the same advantage to do the same.

This morning I read a post from one of the Beat the Streets wrestlers we took to Fargo when I was in New York. It was in my opinion a gut wrenching plea for civility. And that wrestler is the nephew of one of the most infamously reported black men killed by rogue cops for no reason in history. Yet his appeal wasn't anger. It was an appeal to the better person inside each of us. All of us. This is what he posted: ‘God have mercy on us, Lord you are the one who change hearts and make good out of Evil please guide these misguided officers to the right path and protect us instead of harming us.’

I pray for the family of George Floyd. And I pray that someday those friends and colleagues I mention above won't have to leave their homes and wonder if today is the day they have to deal with this themselves. Yes, I have an opinion on the looting and riots. No. I'm not going to speak to riots and looting in this post. They are another separate issue.

Well thought out and conveyed; thanks.   

My view is that everyone comes with advantages and disadvantages in various degrees. Affluence > poverty, cohesive parenting > less supervision and guidance, Blue eyes > Brown eyes, Athletic > Hobbled, Tall > Short, Smart > Dense, Fit > Obese, Beautiful / Handsome > unappealing, etc. When you toss out canards like "privilege" it immediately drives the target to identify their own challenges (born poor, orphaned, etc.), contrast it with your strongest trait, and invalidate your proposition out of hand.

The key is to leverage your advantages, Work hard to overcome or minimize your disadvantages, and achieve what you determine to be "success".   This country has myriad programs and a safety net that allows the vast majority of people to do that if they are driven to.   

Edited by TFBJR
typo

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6 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

This is the 21st  century.  Africans iiving in Scandinavia drink a glass of vitamin D fortified milk per day and they are thriving. 

Sorry. My post was meant to be interpreted in the past tense, an evolutionary scenario well before the advent of milk's mass production , vitamin pills, or Africans living nearer to the north pole. Nature made various accommodations eons ago prior to the evolution of nation-states or science and technology.

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5 hours ago, russelscout said:

yet to see anything that would be called hard science.

Not only hard science but hard fact scientific discoveries.

See W. Farnsworth Loomis, "Skin Pigment Regulation of Vitamin D Biosynthesis in Man."  Science (Aug. 4, 1967), vol. 157, pp. 501-506.

Still true today.

 

Edited by Cooch1
mistake grammer

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4 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

Not only hard science but hard fact scientific discoveries.

See W. Farnsworth Loomis, "Skin Pigment Regulation of Vitamin D Biosynthesis in Man."  Science (Aug. 4, 1967), vol. 157, pp. 501-506.

Still true today.

 

Thanks. I will take a glance at it when I can.

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