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USA Wrestling--Black Male Athletes' Experience

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So safe to say this guy was a racist?  (Former Fencing coach at St. John’s University fired)

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/ny-st-johns-fencing-boris-vaksman-racist-fired-20200611-7lcfaj76vnfodbpg522y6pb3t4-story.html

 

There’s definitely racism in wrestling, but I do think as far as sports go it is probably one of the better ones in terms of race relations...

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On 6/9/2020 at 3:59 PM, tightwaist said:

If you see where wrestling has thrived, historically, it is typically in more rural areas of the country. So, not too surprised with this...sadly.  

lots of racists in penn?

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On 6/12/2020 at 4:31 PM, jchapman said:

The Confederate states should pay, if there is paying to be done.

they weren't the only ones with slaves.

and certainly have no monopoly on racism.

now do the people who sold the slaves into slavery

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On 6/12/2020 at 3:27 PM, Billyhoyle said:

There are very few disadvantages that compare remotely to the police and society at large (E.g. juries, ppl on street, etc) assuming you are a criminal because of the color of your skin and acting accordingly. What good is a safety net when the color of your skin criminalizes you in the eyes of so many. Listen to the experiences described by the Black wrestlers who were part of the discussion. Ask yourself if any disadvantage you have had is comparable to that. For me, the answer is no. Then consider for a minute that this country stole the labor, possessions, freedom, and livelihood of the ancestors of these same people for hundreds of years. If we do not owe a debt for what was stolen (I believe we do, but it appears as if this will not happen), at least we should all strive for reconciliation. We in the wrestling community should listen to what our top athletes are saying about the experiences of racism within the community and aim to eliminate it/make our community inclusive. 

Gender is a far bigger factor with the police.  1 in 1000 black men are killed by police. 1 in 2000 white men are killed by police.  1 in 33,000 women are killed by police.  Police are far more likely to shoot people they are threatened by.  They view being male as threatening and they view being black as threatening.  I would also guess size plays a giant role and that large men are shot far more often then small ones.  Age plays a role as well.  This means that to the police, large/young/black men are scary and can't be trusted by police.  

I believe we have systemic racism and systemic policing issues that intersect to harm black men in very real and very harmful ways.   

Edited by boconnell

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18 hours ago, 1032004 said:

So safe to say this guy was a racist?  (Former Fencing coach at St. John’s University fired)

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/ny-st-johns-fencing-boris-vaksman-racist-fired-20200611-7lcfaj76vnfodbpg522y6pb3t4-story.html

 

There’s definitely racism in wrestling, but I do think as far as sports go it is probably one of the better ones in terms of race relations...

I don't think it is.  I think referee bias is very real.  I think on these boards you could do a study and see how often black wrestlers are described as athletic more than anything else.  I think the response to guys celebrating is heavily influenced by skin color.  

I don't think race relations are worse in wrestling than in most other sports, but they aren't better either.  

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1 hour ago, boconnell said:

This means that to the police, large/young/black men are scary and can't be trusted by police.  

I believe we have systemic racism and systemic policing issues that intersect to harm black men in very real and very harmful ways.   

Or it could just be police just last year were 18.5 percent more likely to be killed by a black man then an unarmed black man killed by police...the statistics don’t back up any of your theories on systemic anything

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4 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Or it could just be police just last year were 18.5 percent more likely to be killed by a black man then an unarmed black man killed by police...the statistics don’t back up any of your theories on systemic anything

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

This doesn't back up the claim that there are systemic issues with how we police?  You don't think it bothers the police that they have to kill so many people?

Edited by boconnell

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5 hours ago, boconnell said:

I don't think it is.  I think referee bias is very real.  I think on these boards you could do a study and see how often black wrestlers are described as athletic more than anything else.  I think the response to guys celebrating is heavily influenced by skin color.  

I don't think race relations are worse in wrestling than in most other sports, but they aren't better either.  

I always thought the way stalling was called in the 3rd period was a way clearer example. Black kid up by 1 with a minute to go, and you can count on those quick calls to come. Jmo.

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Poverty begets crime.  Crime begets negative stereotypes.  For their security, people will apply that stereotype to recognizable patterns like physical traits and behaviors (walk, talk, dress).  This becomes ingrained and results in an unproportional amount of judgement, scrutiny, and prejudice to victims.  America needs to do more to improve opportunities for poor families to make a legit life's earning and to provide a stable two-parent family that helps the youth to educate and seize their own future.  Peaceful protests can be positively impactful and if our president was a better leader, he would have the balls to take a knee on national TV.  The folks out there looting are doing themselves an injustice.  They are letting society see their criminal behavior and letting society reinforce their negative bias.  White, Asian, and Blacks ARE ALL biased against a subset of Americans... and the recent looting events makes some of society feel justified for it.

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13 hours ago, jross said:

Poverty begets crime.  Crime begets negative stereotypes.  For their security, people will apply that stereotype to recognizable patterns like physical traits and behaviors (walk, talk, dress).  This becomes ingrained and results in an unproportional amount of judgement, scrutiny, and prejudice to victims.  America needs to do more to improve opportunities for poor families to make a legit life's earning and to provide a stable two-parent family that helps the youth to educate and seize their own future.  Peaceful protests can be positively impactful and if our president was a better leader, he would have the balls to take a knee on national TV.  The folks out there looting are doing themselves an injustice.  They are letting society see their criminal behavior and letting society reinforce their negative bias.  White, Asian, and Blacks ARE ALL biased against a subset of Americans... and the recent looting events makes some of society feel justified for it.

For starters , adjusted guaranteed income as a right not a privilege. That right there would probably pay for itself in decreased crime, and then some.

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I am struggling with how giving "free" money to people will reduce crime?  Serious question not for argumentative purposes.  To me that creates a host of other "problems" versus solves anything.  There will always be a pay gap in society...not because it is inherently racist, or about keeping people down, but more from the fact that all people are different and thus have, or are capable of different things.  Some people unfortunately may only have the mental capacity (whether by choice or by genetics) to perform certain jobs; thus, only being able to get paid a certain salary.  I for instance do not have the drive, nor mental capacity to become a doctor, or the talent or drive to become a professional athlete...but I don't in turn think I should get paid the same as they do.  Just as I don't want, and don't think I could be, the CEO of the company I work for; thus, I don't expect to get paid as they are.  Can an argument be made about how much certain jobs get paid, sure, but there will always be a difference in how much people make because all people are different...in my opinion.

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13 hours ago, dman115 said:

I am struggling with how giving "free" money to people will reduce crime?  Serious question not for argumentative purposes.  To me that creates a host of other "problems" versus solves anything.  There will always be a pay gap in society...not because it is inherently racist, or about keeping people down, but more from the fact that all people are different and thus have, or are capable of different things.  Some people unfortunately may only have the mental capacity (whether by choice or by genetics) to perform certain jobs; thus, only being able to get paid a certain salary.  I for instance do not have the drive, nor mental capacity to become a doctor, or the talent or drive to become a professional athlete...but I don't in turn think I should get paid the same as they do.  Just as I don't want, and don't think I could be, the CEO of the company I work for; thus, I don't expect to get paid as they are.  Can an argument be made about how much certain jobs get paid, sure, but there will always be a difference in how much people make because all people are different...in my opinion.

The problem isn't that there is a wage gap, the problem is that it is so extreme now. There is less money and less purchasing power available now to the middle class because inflation has risen but the average wage has been stagnant for decades. Helping correct that imbalance makes it easier for a family to grow and their kids to be happy and healthy. Instead now both parents might have to work 2 jobs and even get help from their kids working part time just to afford the basics. There is also less money for things like after school programs to keep kids out of trouble and give them a safe refuge. In a school district nearby me, there are a lot of kids who can't afford to play sports in high school because they have to work part or full time to help support their family or they just can't afford the athletic fees, or they can't afford health insurance. Those kinds of things shouldn't be impediments to participating in high school sports. Now it's become the haves vs the have nots. The haves have fancy new equipment playing 7 on 7 for football and the have nots just don't get those same opportunities. Correcting the imbalance in the wage gap would help solve some of that. Not all of it and it won't happen overnight, but it would do good. 

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Thanks for the post Trip...good discussion.  I totally see what you are saying and really can't disagree.  Makes me wonder what causes the people who are "the haves" and what causes people who are "the have nots".  I think both our posts support each other.  I think what I wrote may "cause" some of the things you wrote about.  That and probably a host of other factors that I don't understand right now.  Anyway, given what you wrote I still have a hard time believing that just giving people money will solve the problem.  I also think that, to a certain point, there will always be different societal economic classes given the different nature of how humans are made up (see my example of me not wanting to be CEO thus won't make CEO $$)...and I am okay with that.  When I say that I want to be clear that those statements have NOTHING to do with equality.  I believe everyone should be treated equally...but I also believe that equal sometimes doesn't mean fair.  Life isn't fair.  My genetics sure weren't fair to me in a lot of ways I can tell you that.  Ha!  It is funny that in America today we have never been "richer" economically, yet our schools and parental support programs are drastically underfunded in some areas.  I am not inferring "systemic racism" here, I am inferring that we need to fix THAT versus give people "free" money.  I also believe there are plenty of opportunities in American, no matter who you, are to better one's self, educate one's self, and get a good paying job for one's self...if you chose to do so.

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

Makes me wonder what causes the people who are "the haves" and what causes people who are "the have nots".

Generational curses are observable where single parent, divorce, drugs, crime, anger, decision making, poverty, etc are behaviors passed down through a cycle of suffering.  While everyone has opportunity to improve their situation, I am betting many people are ignorant to what the opportunities are... and how to seize them.  Some people are hardened by their life experiences at an early age and others lack trust and confidence in their self and community.  It is remarkable when someone chooses to break the cycle.

What opportunities are there for youth and adults to get the structure, guidance, and enablement to improve their life and with less negative pressure holding them down?  UBI is only part of the equation.  

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24 minutes ago, jross said:

Disgusting.  How can anyone alive possibly think this way.  https://deadspin.com/lincoln-made-a-mistake-st-john-fires-fencing-coach-wh-1844017410

We've all learned a few of the reasons this past week.  His own reasons will differ but they will provide equivalent absolution.

1) Alcoholism

2) Drug Addiction

3) Mental illness

4) Misunderstood.  It is not actually racism if you don't like the color in other contexts.

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3 hours ago, jross said:

Generational curses are observable where single parent, divorce, drugs, crime, anger, decision making, poverty, etc are behaviors passed down through a cycle of suffering.  While everyone has opportunity to improve their situation, I am betting many people are ignorant to what the opportunities are... and how to seize them.  Some people are hardened by their life experiences at an early age and others lack trust and confidence in their self and community.  It is remarkable when someone chooses to break the cycle.

What opportunities are there for youth and adults to get the structure, guidance, and enablement to improve their life and with less negative pressure holding them down?  UBI is only part of the equation.  

Definitely makes sense...thanks for posting this.  It's like I knew this but didn't...if that makes any sense?!

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4 hours ago, jross said:

no

there is a book called 'drive' about what motivates us

external doesn't work

ive known this for years... and studied it in my classroom

 

and really... we have been giving people money for years

all you have to do is apply

and you have some it helps and some who become welfare families... 

Edited by GockeS

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