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Revisiting the racism at Team Foxcatcher

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15 minutes ago, LJB said:

for sure, take an emotional response and do not put any critical thinking into it at all...

just go with that emotion...

good thinking...

Here's my reasoned point: if Kenny Monday says race was an issue at Foxcatcher, I believe him. If he says it wasn't an issue, I believe him. I choose to side with the man who has experienced the effects of racism in this community and in this country.

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

You seem vociferous in your point of view. That's fine; it's not my job to change your personal perspective. It's a much bigger issue than you or me.

The reason I'm responding to your posts--which strike me as more or less superficial and ugly--is that I want anyone who might read a thread like this (before it gets locked) to know that your point of view has not gone unchallenged. There are people in the wrestling community, and on this board, who are willing to stand against racism and respond to people who, like you, feel a need to argue on the behalf of a murderer rather than even consider that, just maybe, race was an issue at Foxcatcher. It's not revisionist; it's understanding reality through an evolved lens.

And again, I'm not self-righteous. My aim here is to articulate a reasoned and principled stance. I am trying harder: that's why I'm on this message board choosing to engage with you.

Very well said and I’m of the same thought process. 
 

LJB, consider wrestlingzen’s reply to you above as my reply back to you in the other thread. 

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6 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

You seem vociferous in your point of view. That's fine; it's not my job to change your personal perspective. It's a much bigger issue than you or me.

The reason I'm responding to your posts--which strike me as more or less superficial and ugly--is that I want anyone who might read a thread like this (before it gets locked) to know that your point of view has not gone unchallenged. There are people in the wrestling community, and on this board, who are willing to stand against racism and respond to people who, like you, feel a need to argue on the behalf of a murderer rather than even consider that, just maybe, race was an issue at Foxcatcher. It's not revisionist; it's understanding reality through an evolved lens.

And again, I'm not self-righteous. My aim here is to articulate a reasoned and principled stance. I am trying harder: that's why I'm on this message board choosing to engage with you.

You are clearly a champion of the people... maybe someday they will write songs about you...

who knows...

why have you failed to comment once on the fact that DuPont got rid of everything black on the farm and not just the athletes?
and that it happened all at the same time?

or that it coincided with his obvious declining mental health?

my guess is it because it does not reinforce your child’s take on what happened...

You could also look at what other athletes have said about it who were their at the time...

nah... no good either...

documentaries made in the time in question?

uh huh...

not gonna happen...

just keep shining that shield...

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Maybe the Du Pont situation was nuanced?  I mean, it might technically meet a dictionary definition of racism, but may not share many traits of what we commonly think of as institutional racism.  They guy was delusional.  One day, he started believing  the color black was evil or bad.  It was horrible that it lead to the removal of black athletes, but it wasn’t born out of 200+ years systemic marginalization.

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9 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

Here's my reasoned point: if Kenny Monday says race was an issue at Foxcatcher, I believe him. If he says it wasn't an issue, I believe him. I choose to side with the man who has experienced the effects of racism in this community and in this country.

What about all the other athletes who said race absolutely was not a factor?

if race was an issue, why were any black athletes invited to the farm in the first place?

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1 minute ago, jchapman said:

Maybe the Du Pont situation was nuanced?  I mean, it might technically meet a dictionary definition of racism, but may not share many traits of what we commonly think of as institutional racism.  They guy was delusional.  One day, he started believing  the color black was evil or bad.  It was horrible that it lead to the removal of black athletes, but it wasn’t born out of 200+ years systemic marginalization.

We don’t do nuance here.

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13 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

Here's my reasoned point: if Kenny Monday says race was an issue at Foxcatcher, I believe him. If he says it wasn't an issue, I believe him. I choose to side with the man who has experienced the effects of racism in this community and in this country.

So Kurt Angle is less believable because he’s white? 

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1 minute ago, Antitroll2828 said:

So Kurt Angle is less believable because he’s white? 

As are the brands brothers...

as was Dave Schultz...

Jordanov...

chaid...

clearly, the current climate does not lend itself to anything but grandstanding on emotions and self righteousness...

Mor perhaps it’s self loathing...

it could go either way...

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20 minutes ago, LJB said:

You are clearly a champion of the people... maybe someday they will write songs about you...

who knows...

why have you failed to comment once on the fact that DuPont got rid of everything black on the farm and not just the athletes?
and that it happened all at the same time?

or that it coincided with his obvious declining mental health?

my guess is it because it does not reinforce your child’s take on what happened...

You could also look at what other athletes have said about it who were their at the time...

nah... no good either...

documentaries made in the time in question?

uh huh...

not gonna happen...

just keep shining that shield...

Alright, so this has to be my last response to you for the night.

I've got no interest in being a 'champion of the people'. That's your way of trying to undercut sound reason with ad hominem attack. 

To your point, though: I am interested in supporting people. It's pretty simple. 

RE: the argument that 'DuPont got rid of everything black so therefore he wasn't racist'. Being mentally ill simply doesn't disqualify a person from also being racist. As I've mentioned, I personally see mental illness as fundamental to the racist disposition. And to be clear: I empathize with mental illness and take it seriously.

Ultimately, I sense that you're trying to make a point about what's going on in the world right now--I get that it's hard--but you've chosen to spend a decent chunk of your evening looking for ways to argue on behalf of a murderer rather than think hard about the real issue at hand regarding race in this community and this country. 

 

Edited by wrestlingzen

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I was a wrestling fan then, but didn't know much about Foxcatcher except that I kept up with the Schultz bro.s and Metzger a couple of bad ass light weights.  We were pretty good then.  I thought some of the guys left the club because "he's more than just eccentric!"

I remember an article where any honest program would have gotten the gist of what was coming out of that sick mind.

 

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9 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

So Kurt Angle is less believable because he’s white? 

I'm not sure if you really want a response, but I sense you may actually be interested in dialogue.

Here's a quick thought: it's not that I wouldn't take Kurt Angle's point of view seriously. But when it comes to the issue of race and racism in this particular country, yes, I would say that Kenny Monday's perspective (as a black man) is definitely more believable. (I think it's important to say that I have no idea what Monday's perspective might be on all of this;  that's for him to say.)

I'd like to be clear: there's lots of nuance in the statement I just made; I'm just trying to keep it brief and simple.

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39 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

You seem vociferous in your point of view. That's fine; it's not my job to change your personal perspective. It's a much bigger issue than you or me.

The reason I'm responding to your posts--which strike me as more or less superficial and ugly--is that I want anyone who might read a thread like this (before it gets locked) to know that your point of view has not gone unchallenged. There are people in the wrestling community, and on this board, who are willing to stand against racism and respond to people who, like you, feel a need to argue on the behalf of a murderer rather than even consider that, just maybe, race was an issue at Foxcatcher. It's not revisionist; it's understanding reality through an evolved lens.

And again, I'm not self-righteous. My aim here is to articulate a reasoned and principled stance. I am trying harder: that's why I'm on this message board choosing to engage with you.

The only standing you do against racism is grandstanding. For years now kids of all races start wrestling and they want to be Jordan Burroughs, the man is most admired guy in the sport and j den Cox isn’t far behind him .10 out of our 30 world team spots are black athletes. 33% percent of our team is black while only making up 12.7 percent of the population, that’s easily better then most other sports. But this narrative that wrestling is systematically racist made by people like you is ridiculous.

i agree the garbage Marc hall had to deal with in recruiting is stuff that needs to be stopped immediately, but other then a few dirtbag refs, or coaches here and there , wrestling is a sport that welcomes anyone with the guts to put in the work and put your foot on that line.

we also made it a point to get involved in the inner cities and and try to draw up interest there by starting Beat the Streets which now takes place in cities all across America.

i’m sure guys like Monday and Campbell dealt with some disgusting things in there day but the wrestling world isn’t anything like that anymore, outside a few clowns here and there 

you really have some sick twisted view of the world, everyday people in this country respect each other and get along fine, and People in the real world will call out racism when they see it and move on, they don’t feel the need to puff there chest and make bold proclamations on the Internet.

Edited by Antitroll2828

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3 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

Alright, so this has to be my last response to you for the night.

I've got no interest in being a 'champion of the people'. That's your way of trying to undercut sound reason with ad hominem attack. 

To your point, though: I am interested in supporting people. It's pretty simple. 

RE: the argument that 'DuPont got rid of everything black so therefore he wasn't racist'. Being mentally ill simply doesn't not disqualify a person from also being racist. As I've mentioned, I personally see mental illness as fundamental to the racist disposition. And to be clear: I empathize with mental illness and take it seriously.

Ultimately, I sense that you're trying to make a point about what's going on in the world right now--I get that it's hard--but you've chosen to spend a decent chunk of your evening looking for ways to argue on behalf of a murderer rather than think hard about the real issue at hand regarding race in this community and this country. 

 

Not argue on behalf of a murderer... 

on behalf of logic and not emotion...

why were any black wrestlers invited to the farm in the first place by a racist?

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My initial reaction was, if his mental illness had manifested in binge eating, I wouldn't just superficially say DuPont loved cookies.

But then I thought, I wouldn't classify DuPont as non-violent, even though I am fairly confident it was mental illness that caused him to commit murder.

Now all I can say for sure is that I perceive this discussion to be complex enough to not immediately choose a side.

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Just now, Antitroll2828 said:

The only standing you do against racism is grandstanding. For years now kids of all races start wrestling and they want to be Jordan Burroughs, the man is most admired guy in the sport and j den Cox isn’t far behind him .10 out of our 30 world team spots are black athletes. 33% percent of our team is black while only making up 12.7 percent of the population, that’s easily better then most other sports. But this narrative that wrestling is systematically racist made by people like you is ridiculous.

i agree the garbage Marc hall had to deal with in recruiting is stuff that needs to be stopped immediately, but other then a few dirtbag refs, or coaches here and there , wrestling is a sport that welcomes anyone with the guts to put in the work and put your foot on that line.

we also made it a point to get involved in the inner cities and and try to draw up interest there by starting Beat the Streets which now takes place in cities all across America.

i’m sure guys like Monday and Campbell dealt with some disgusting things in there day but the wrestling world isn’t anything like that anymore, outside a few clowns here and there 

you really have some sick twisted view of the world, everyday people in this country respect each other and get along fine, and People in the real world will call out racism when they see it and move on they feel the need to puff there chest and make bold proclamations on the Internet.

A couple quick points,  and then I've got to hit it.

1) if you haven't checked it out already, watch the video USA Wrestling published yesterday. You'll hear from Jordan Burroughs, J'Den Cox, Mark Hall, and several other awesome men who share their experiences as black athletes in the sport of wrestling. We should listen to them and believe them.

2) The men I just mentioned, if I understand them correctly, asked people in the community to take a stand and speak up about the very issues we're discussing. I'm not looking to speak for them; I'm just doing my best to amplify the message in the best way I know how. I'm glad to be educated and change my thinking if they think I'm missing the point.

3) It's a tired and fallacious argument to say that racism is a 'thing of the past' or it's just 'a few bad apples'. It's just not true, and my saying so doesn't make me a sick or twisted person. 

4) I'm not interested in grandstanding. This is a wrestling message board, not Twitter. And I'm an anonymous poster who should be in bed, not a celebrity who is looking to bolster my image.

5) I'm proud of USA Wrestling's efforts to be an inclusive organization. I've always supported these efforts--the work is never done.

Finally: I don't know who you are, but whatever anger you're feeling toward me, you should direct toward something meaningful. I'm one of the good guys.

 

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1. DuPont was severely mentally ill. Clearly and unequivocally mentally ill. His mental illness undoubtedly contributed to his actions at FoxCatcher. To what extent, is up for debate. To mention this undeniable truth is not a defense for his actions but does provide context surrounding what happened. 

2. DuPont may have been racist. As much as it’s popular to think, speak, and judge in absolutes, racism does exist on a spectrum.

3. Racism is not a clinical mental illness and to suggest so, demonstrates a clear lack of understanding about mental illness and further stigmatizes those who suffer from legitimate mental illness by grouping them with racists.

 

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4 hours ago, wrestlingzen said:

Hey man, I appreciate what you're saying here.

I obviously don't have firsthand information on the situation at Foxcatcher, but I'd say this: let's just believe Kenny Monday. I don't know what he, or Angle, has said, but if Monday said race was an issue, then I'm taking his word for it. 

Angle said that it wasn't a racist thing, it was because DuPont was cracking and losing his mind.  He said he understood why somebody like Kenny Monday who wasn't a part of Foxcatcher would think that and be vocal about it, but from the outside looking in it is pretty easy to call it racism. He even added that if it had been him in Monday's position he probably would have thought the same thing.  The guy was just losing his mind doing crazy things. Right around the same time I think was when he drove his car into a pond with some FILA higher up in the passenger seat. I'm not saying it was OK for him to do it, but he had no history of saying or doing racist things and then all of a sudden just does that. Angle said that he treated everybody the same, black, white, whatever, and that was why it was so surprising he did that because he had treated his wrestlers so well. This was kind of the impetus that led a lot of people into looking at leaving and finding another situation because it was clear DuPont was losing his mind. I think that this was sometime after he pointed a machine gun at Dan Chaid and told him to leave right now too.  

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29 minutes ago, Katie said:

It’s pretty simple.

Discrimination on the basis of race is racism. Intentionally killing an innocent person is murder. 

Mental illness might affect how you deal with racism or murder. But the bottom line is that you are dealing with racism and murder. 

the courts of this great nation of ours scoff at your elementary opinion on mental illness...

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How about this...DuPont is a freaking crazy murderer...PERIOD!!  He may or may not be racist, only being inside his heart and mind will tell us for sure, but I don't know about you, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near either of those things.

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6 minutes ago, dman115 said:

How about this...DuPont is a freaking crazy murderer...PERIOD!!  He may or may not be racist, only being inside his heart and mind will tell us for sure, but I don't know about you, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near either of those things.

His heart is currently 6 ft under ground.

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On 6/10/2020 at 10:31 AM, LJB said:

the courts of this great nation of ours scoff at your elementary opinion on mental illness...

Oh really?

As far as I know, insanity can be a defense to civil rights violations and to murder. But all that means is that people determined to be insane will be treated differently than other civil rights violators and other murderers.

Edited by Katie

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