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Revisiting the racism at Team Foxcatcher

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22 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

Second: for me, when it comes to issues of race in this country, I believe we should listen to and believe people who have experienced firsthand the effects of racism over people who have not had that experience. 

This is where it can get dangerous.  Shouldn’t we listen to everyone and then trust ourselves to make value judgements?  I know murder is wrong, but I have never been murdered, murdered anyone else, or had a loved one murdered l.  I can still make that judgement without firsthand experience.

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4 minutes ago, jchapman said:

This is where it can get dangerous.  Shouldn’t we listen to everyone and then trust ourselves to make value judgements?  I know murder is wrong, but I have never been murdered, murdered anyone else, or had a loved one murdered l.  I can still make that judgement without firsthand experience.

he has already discounted the applying logical thought argument...

emotion, virtue signaling, and grandstanding are the only actions/thoughts/expressions that are relevant...

 

*licks boot*

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I believe if we are going to make progress in this country we are going to have to listen...but that means listening to ALL and not just those that are in support of the current populist narrative and/or have the attitude that the only ones who can have an opinion is those who have experienced the things being discussed.  If racism is going to be further eliminated in this country it will because EVERYONE was part of the solution and that means EVERYONE should have a voice even if it isn't a populist or PC one.

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

your victim mentality fits perfectly inline with the current climate in this country...

 

I said this before, but I’ll clarify again: I’m not talking to you, and I have no interest trying to change your view. 

Here’s what I am doing, whether you, or anyone else, agrees with what I’m saying: I’m using this site as a platform to communicate about issues that I believe are important. It’s not about me.

Let me be even more specific: I think you, LBJ, exemplify the type of ignorance that actively contributes to problems of race in this country. I don’t care what you say about me; I’m only responding to your post because I hope that someone else might see it and feel emboldened to take a stand against the type of ideology you represent. 

With that in mind, here’s a link for anyone interested in learning more from people who have knowledge on the subject of race in America: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kylewestaway/2020/06/04/20-books-for-2020-a-reading-list-on-race-in-america/#746edb7630b0 

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1 hour ago, wrestlingzen said:

Second: for me, when it comes to issues of race in this country, I believe we should listen to and believe people who have experienced firsthand the effects of racism over people who have not had that experience. I’m not inflexible, and I understand the nuance of human experience, but it’s a principle I follow. 

Generally speaking, yes, but not applied to every specific situation. I mean, basically what you are saying is that if a black person says someone was racist then that is the most relevant, if not only relevant factor.  Which is basically closing your mind off to there possibly being another way of thinking.  Isn’t that exactly what we’re trying to eradicate here?  

The bigger issue in my view  however doesn’t relate to the particular examples we’ve been discussing. These are mostly figurations through which we are trying to articulate our points of view in this particular moment.

>I have to disagree here because this is not a ‘what if’ scenario, or even a story I heard about. It is a real life situation that I personally attended involving the some of very people we are discussing.  I believe it is very relevant.  

I’m not really saying DuPont was or wasn’t racist.  The move was certainly an incident of that, I don’t argue one bit. My point in the original response is that it cannot just become a blanket....if a black man said it was racist then it was racist, because black men have experienced that.  I’m sorry but no.  As for the rest of your post, I personally don’t believe I fit into that category so I won’t respond to any of it.  What I do believe is that if we are going to work this thing out then everyone, white black brown yellow whatever, just needs to stop and listen to things they haven’t listened to and try to see things they haven’t seen.  Everyone. If one side is bound from their opinions and feelings and the other is free to speak without accountability, we get nowhere.  If we ALL don’t listen to other side for absolutely nothing more than hear what they have to say, we get nowhere. Just my opinion  

 

Edited by Lurker

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1 minute ago, wrestlingzen said:

I said this before, but I’ll clarify again: I’m not talking to you, and I have no interest trying to change your view. 

Here’s what I am doing, whether you, or anyone else, agrees with what I’m saying: I’m using this site as a platform to communicate about issues that I believe are important. It’s not about me.

Let me be even more specific: I think you, LBJ, exemplify the type of ignorance that actively contributes to problems of race in this country. I don’t care what you say about me; I’m only responding to your post because I hope that someone else might see it and feel emboldened to take a stand against the type of ideology you represent. 

With that in mind, here’s a link for anyone interested in learning more from people who have knowledge on the subject of race in America: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kylewestaway/2020/06/04/20-books-for-2020-a-reading-list-on-race-in-america/#746edb7630b0 

exactly what ignorance do i display?

exactly what ideology do i represent?

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Just now, dman115 said:

I was going to ask the same think LJB

go ahead... the victim won't be able to answer... he simply can't... 

i have a mental picture of the victim...

it is the same as all the rest of you have...

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3 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

No the argument is DuPont didn’t kick out the black athletes because they were African American he kicked them out because he was in a paranoid psychosis and became deathly afraid of the COLOR black, black cars, which he had like 5 of were destroyed, black houses painted, black horses he had for 20 years gone, black clothes, shoes, painting, and he didn’t decide to purge his life of all things black because he recently had enjoyed some KKK literature he did it because he was crazy his whole life and decades of heavy alcohol and cocaine abuse finally caught up with him and he became a paranoid, unhinged madman.

dave Schultz is arguably the most respected figure in our sport, he traveled the world, learned different languages, different cultures a friend of everyone, do you really think him and his kids would have stayed if he thought DuPont was getting rid of black athletes for racial reasons? He would have been gone in a second, he always stood for what he believed in, he stayed because he viewed DuPont as a friend and knew he was just crazy and  tried to help.

I am ignorant of this topic and I apologize to board for commenting on issue I knew nothing about.

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16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Hey Lurker--I appreciate your response, and especially your point about the real-life-situation at Foxcatcher. Good perspective.

I'm not sure I agree wholly with everything you're saying (nothing that couldn't  be worked out over a beer, I imagine), but I respect the general spirit of what I understand you to be saying. 

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18 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

We actually have people arguing that a man who threw out black wrestlers because they are black ISN'T racist. That's actually happening. Speaks volumes of their character. 

Well when the reason he kicked them out has nothing to do with the fact that they were African American but because he’s a paranoid drug addict psycho who removed EVERY SINGLE thing that was the color black on his entire 440 acre estate. Your choosing to ignore the 100 things posted on here to stick with the he’s racist , and everyone who disagrees is a bad person card.

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4 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

We actually have people arguing that a man who threw out black wrestlers because they are black ISN'T racist. That's actually happening. Speaks volumes of their character. 

He was a mentally ill drug addict who was cracking apart due to psychosis or whatever was wrong with him and months later murdered his best friend Dave Schultz for no reason.  Kicking black athletes off his team by claiming he wanted everything black to be gone from his farm, and actually doing it, cars, etc. is an indication he was having trouble keeping it together.  From the outside, it looked like he was just being a racist rich white guy, but he also had people refer to him as the Dalai Lama and sat naked in a giant birds nest in his living room making people refer to him as the Golden Eagle, is a pretty good indication that he was losing his marbles. Instead of asking Kenny Monday who wasn't a part of Foxcatcher, somebody should ask Kevin Jackson who was the one told to leave. I'd put more into what Jackson had to say on it, since DuPont was the one who told him he had to go and why.  

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On 6/9/2020 at 11:41 PM, wrestlingzen said:

Start by reading a book.

Seriously: I don't mean a blog, a news article, or some random post about race in this country. A real book.

Here's one place to begin: https://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431

Also, I'm OK with you dismissing my perspective, even if you don't choose to engage with it in on a meaningful level. It's not just a random opinion; outside of the minor dig on LBJ's intelligence, which may or may not be accurate, it's well reasoned, and if you do the work, and do some honest-to-god reflection on your own point of view, you may learn something. I honestly hope you give it try.

Read the book. The biggest change needed is for black men to be fathers to their children. Grandmothers are rearing black children. There is no male role model in the lives of black children. Obama did nothing to improve race relations in this country. He did draw a line in the sand telling ISIS not to cross it which they did so he moved it back several times. 

Social programs, book reading, self reflection won’t improve race relations. Personal responsibility, hard work, and a commitment to excellence will. Kinda sounds like wrestling, right?

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13 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Well when the reason he kicked them out has nothing to do with the fact that they were African American but because he’s a paranoid drug addict psycho who removed EVERY SINGLE thing that was the color black on his entire 440 acre estate. Your choosing to ignore the 100 things posted on here to stick with the he’s racist , and everyone who disagrees is a bad person card.

The Foxcatcher estate was 800 acres

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Is it possible that labeling a person as a racist is impossibly simplistic? Do people act/speak in racist ways - yes.  Could DuPont's actions be interpreted as racist by rational people? Yes.  Are complex human beings easily labeled as any "___________ist"? No.  Who here has ever told a lie?  Are we all then liars?  Is that how you would label everyone?  Seems to me that DuPont's actions were unintentionally racist, in that he was mentally ill and not specifically singling out WOC for any reason other than his escalating illness.  But unintentional racism is still racism, in fact far more widespread and problematic than more explicit, intentional racism.  Arguing about whether anyone is "a racist" is a complete waste of time.  If Jackson or others perceived his actions as racist, (rightly so imo) then that is all that matters to me. Now, can we all just move on and recognize that poor people of all colors have far more in common than differences as trivial as race, and that keeping racial fears/distrust on the front page allows the rich and powerful to continue to stack the deck against everyone else for their own economic benefit? Divide and conquer is a strategy of the powerful/wealthy.  Always has been. 

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3 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Read the book. The biggest change needed is for black men to be fathers to their children. Grandmothers are rearing black children. There is no male role model in the lives of black children. Obama did nothing to improve race relations in this country. He did draw a line in the sand telling ISIS not to cross it which they did so he moved it back several times. 

Social programs, book reading, self reflection won’t improve race relations. Personal responsibility, hard work, and a commitment to excellence will. Kinda sounds like wrestling, right?

Couldn't agree more!  Other than I do think educating one self does help bring perspective; however, the true root cause is what happens, or doesn't happen at home...both in the black community and the white.

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27 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Is it possible that labeling a person as a racist is impossibly simplistic? Do people act/speak in racist ways - yes.  Could DuPont's actions be interpreted as racist by rational people? Yes.  Are complex human beings easily labeled as any "___________ist"? No.  Who here has ever told a lie?  Are we all then liars?  Is that how you would label everyone?  Seems to me that DuPont's actions were unintentionally racist, in that he was mentally ill and not specifically singling out WOC for any reason other than his escalating illness.  But unintentional racism is still racism, in fact far more widespread and problematic than more explicit, intentional racism.  Arguing about whether anyone is "a racist" is a complete waste of time.  If Jackson or others perceived his actions as racist, (rightly so imo) then that is all that matters to me. Now, can we all just move on and recognize that poor people of all colors have far more in common than differences as trivial as race, and that keeping racial fears/distrust on the front page allows the rich and powerful to continue to stack the deck against everyone else for their own economic benefit? Divide and conquer is a strategy of the powerful/wealthy.  Always has been. 

BINGO!!

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1 hour ago, tigerfan said:

Is it possible that labeling a person as a racist is impossibly simplistic? Do people act/speak in racist ways - yes.  Could DuPont's actions be interpreted as racist by rational people? Yes.  Are complex human beings easily labeled as any "___________ist"? No.  Who here has ever told a lie?  Are we all then liars?  Is that how you would label everyone?  Seems to me that DuPont's actions were unintentionally racist, in that he was mentally ill and not specifically singling out WOC for any reason other than his escalating illness.  But unintentional racism is still racism, in fact far more widespread and problematic than more explicit, intentional racism.  Arguing about whether anyone is "a racist" is a complete waste of time.  If Jackson or others perceived his actions as racist, (rightly so imo) then that is all that matters to me. Now, can we all just move on and recognize that poor people of all colors have far more in common than differences as trivial as race, and that keeping racial fears/distrust on the front page allows the rich and powerful to continue to stack the deck against everyone else for their own economic benefit? Divide and conquer is a strategy of the powerful/wealthy.  Always has been. 

Easy to blame the rich and powerful. I say, screw them. Out work and out perform and you will get a piece of the pie. 

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4 minutes ago, gowrestle said:

Easy to blame the rich and powerful. I say, screw them. Out work and out perform and you will get a piece of the pie. 

Crumbs are a piece of the pie.  Enough to keep the people passive, apparently.

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9 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Crumbs are a piece of the pie.  Enough to keep the people passive, apparently.

this...

what most fail to understand it is much less about race and almost entirely about socio-economics...

but the race baiting keeps us distracted and makes great bite sized clips for the plebians to argue over endlessly and not get anywhere...

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3 minutes ago, 152lbs said:

Who is race baiting?

I'd be interested in hearing your take on this concept of race baiting?  And it is a serious ask...not meant to argue but learn your perspective.

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