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Katie

Revisiting the racism at Team Foxcatcher

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12 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

He was a mentally ill drug addict who was cracking apart due to psychosis or whatever was wrong with him and months later murdered his best friend Dave Schultz for no reason.  Kicking black athletes off his team by claiming he wanted everything black to be gone from his farm, and actually doing it, cars, etc. is an indication he was having trouble keeping it together.  From the outside, it looked like he was just being a racist rich white guy, but he also had people refer to him as the Dalai Lama and sat naked in a giant birds nest in his living room making people refer to him as the Golden Eagle, is a pretty good indication that he was losing his marbles. Instead of asking Kenny Monday who wasn't a part of Foxcatcher, somebody should ask Kevin Jackson who was the one told to leave. I'd put more into what Jackson had to say on it, since DuPont was the one who told him he had to go and why.  

Lots of mental gymnastics you're going through to get to your conclusion 

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Just now, CoachWrestling said:

Lots of mental gymnastics you're going through to get to your conclusion 

you on the other hand have committed absolutely no thought to your conclusion...

but, each to their own...

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2 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

Lots of mental gymnastics you're going through to get to your conclusion 

Not really.  It's pretty simple, if you have a serious mental illness, then who knows what can happen. Make it worse by ingesting a ton of drugs and alcohol, then it's really going to make somebody fly off the rails. It wasn't as if DuPont showed up one day and said he hated black people and they needed to leave. He said he considered the color black to be evil and full of death and ordered everything black on the farm be taken away or painted over and told the black wrestlers to leave, saying the only racist thing about it which was some gibberish about how the farm was a base for the KKK or whatever.  Considering the guy asked people to call him the Dalai Lama and then murdered Dave Schultz, who was his best friend, randomly in his driveway, it's pretty clear that the things he was doing weren't racially motivated and were just symptoms of his mental illness, which caused him to do and say crazy things. Like trying to drown that guy from FILA, blowing up buildings on his property with dynamite, or rolling over stuff with a tank he had bought.  The guy was crazy plain and simple. 

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8 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Read the book. The biggest change needed is for black men to be fathers to their children. Grandmothers are rearing black children. There is no male role model in the lives of black children. Obama did nothing to improve race relations in this country. He did draw a line in the sand telling ISIS not to cross it which they did so he moved it back several times. 

Social programs, book reading, self reflection won’t improve race relations. Personal responsibility, hard work, and a commitment to excellence will. Kinda sounds like wrestling, right?

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if you actually believe what you're saying.

Either way, I can't imagine anyone one who has read and understood The New Jim Crow could get behind the narrow and radically simplistic reasoning you've articulated here. 

But to your second point, which I think has promise in a way: there's no reason why social programs, book reading, and self reflection can't be combined with personal responsibility, hard work, and a commitment to excellence. In fact, one could argue that it's an unnecessary and problematic separation that has historically been used to characterize some groups as 'lazy' and immoral and others as industrious and morally righteous. 

Similar to the leadership at USA Wrestling, I believe that wrestling can improve race relations and respond to injustice (https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2020/June/01/USA-Wrestling-statement-on-social-justice), but these efforts will always be hindered by the type of inane thinking you represent in your post.

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingzen said:

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if you actually believe what you're saying.

Either way, I can't imagine anyone one who has read and understood The New Jim Crow could get behind the narrow and radically simplistic reasoning you've articulated here. 

But to your second point, which I think has promise in a way: there's no reason why social programs, book reading, and self reflection can't be combined with personal responsibility, hard work, and a commitment to excellence. In fact, one could argue that it's an unnecessary and problematic separation that has historically been used to characterize some groups as 'lazy' and immoral and others as industrious and morally righteous. 

Similar to the leadership at USA Wrestling, I believe that wrestling can improve race relations and respond to injustice (https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2020/June/01/USA-Wrestling-statement-on-social-justice), but these efforts will always be hindered by the type of inane thinking you represent in your post.

Any thoughts on the parenting end of things in regards to this issue?

On a different note...I am not sure anyone on here can claim the other has narrow and radically simplistic reasoning on here based on what they have articulated.  There is nothing simplistic about this topic and there is no reason all voices can't be heard.

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19 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

Not really.  It's pretty simple, if you have a serious mental illness, then who knows what can happen. Make it worse by ingesting a ton of drugs and alcohol, then it's really going to make somebody fly off the rails. It wasn't as if DuPont showed up one day and said he hated black people and they needed to leave. He said he considered the color black to be evil and full of death and ordered everything black on the farm be taken away or painted over and told the black wrestlers to leave, saying the only racist thing about it which was some gibberish about how the farm was a base for the KKK or whatever.  Considering the guy asked people to call him the Dalai Lama and then murdered Dave Schultz, who was his best friend, randomly in his driveway, it's pretty clear that the things he was doing weren't racially motivated and were just symptoms of his mental illness, which caused him to do and say crazy things. Like trying to drown that guy from FILA, blowing up buildings on his property with dynamite, or rolling over stuff with a tank he had bought.  The guy was crazy plain and simple. 

Firing all black people because they are black is racist. It does not matter that the reasoning behind the racist act is out of step with traditional white supremacy. 

Edited by Katie

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4 minutes ago, Katie said:

Firing all black people because they are black is racist. It does not matter that the reasoning behind the racist act is out of step with traditional white supremacy. 

Even if the guy who did it got rid of everything else black around him and told people to call him the Dalai Lama? I would 100% agree if he just did that then yeah that's racist. But the guy was literally cracking apart mentally and doing all kinds of crazy things, which culminated in him murdering Dave Schultz for no reason. Also consider he had never even said or done anything towards the black wrestlers he had that anyone ever saw that was racist in any way. If this was a pattern or behavior, yeah racist, I would agree. But the guy was losing his mind, doing drugs and drinking heavily. He thought people were out to get him, and had threatened Dan Chaid with a machine gun by this point. It's just one of the many warning signs USA Wrestling ignored about his deteriorating mental health, instability and danger he posed to people. 

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8 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

Even if the guy who did it got rid of everything else black around him and told people to call him the Dalai Lama? I would 100% agree if he just did that then yeah that's racist. But the guy was literally cracking apart mentally and doing all kinds of crazy things, which culminated in him murdering Dave Schultz for no reason. Also consider he had never even said or done anything towards the black wrestlers he had that anyone ever saw that was racist in any way. If this was a pattern or behavior, yeah racist, I would agree. But the guy was losing his mind, doing drugs and drinking heavily. He thought people were out to get him, and had threatened Dan Chaid with a machine gun by this point. It's just one of the many warning signs USA Wrestling ignored about his deteriorating mental health, instability and danger he posed to people. 

Murder is still murder, even if the reasoning behind it is crazy. Similarly, a racist act is still racist even if the reasoning behind it is crazy. 

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3 minutes ago, Katie said:

Murder is still murder, even if the reasoning behind it is crazy. Similarly, a racist act is still racist even if the reasoning behind it is crazy. 

Agreed.  It was a racist act, driven by extreme psychosis.  I don't know why there is such a debate on this.

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10 minutes ago, Katie said:

Murder is still murder, even if the reasoning behind it is crazy. Similarly, a racist act is still racist even if the reasoning behind it is crazy. 

But it wasn't really a racial thing. He got rid of everything black, cars, had things painted, destroyed or thrown away that were black too. He was a weird obsessive guy who did stuff like that, he got an idea about something he wanted to do and he did it with an obsession until it was finished. Like getting rid of everything black in his life. People try to make it into a racial thing and it really isn;t, the guy had flipped his lid and was obviously nuts. I think Monday was pissed because USA Wrestling ignored it, but they ignored him doing tons of other crazy stuff too, so it wasn't as if USA Wrestling was really looking out for their own people's safety. 

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8 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

But it wasn't really a racial thing. He got rid of everything black, cars, had things painted, destroyed or thrown away that were black too. He was a weird obsessive guy who did stuff like that, he got an idea about something he wanted to do and he did it with an obsession until it was finished. Like getting rid of everything black in his life. People try to make it into a racial thing and it really isn;t, the guy had flipped his lid and was obviously nuts. I think Monday was pissed because USA Wrestling ignored it, but they ignored him doing tons of other crazy stuff too, so it wasn't as if USA Wrestling was really looking out for their own people's safety. 

Du Pont apparently associated black people with evil. As a result he placed them on a hierarchy below other races. Then he banned them from Team Foxcatcher simply for being black. Then after banning black them, he allegedly said Team Foxcatcher was now part of the KKK. 

How is that not racism?

Edited by Katie

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4 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

But it wasn't really a racial thing. He got rid of everything black, cars, had things painted, destroyed or thrown away that were black too. He was a weird obsessive guy who did stuff like that, he got an idea about something he wanted to do and he did it with an obsession until it was finished. Like getting rid of everything black in his life. People try to make it into a racial thing and it really isn;t, the guy had flipped his lid and was obviously nuts. I think Monday was pissed because USA Wrestling ignored it, but they ignored him doing tons of other crazy stuff too, so it wasn't as if USA Wrestling was really looking out for their own people's safety. 

He also said this is now a MKK organization and black people are no longer allowed. There’s no way you can deny the racism there, even if it was driven by his insanity. 

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Also, I just learned that even before du Pont banned black athletes from Team Foxcatcher and allegedly said Team Foxcatcher was part of the KKK, he also allegedly paid the black wrestlers less and gave them fewer benefits than lesser ranked white wrestlers. (See this article.)

Edited by Katie

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25 minutes ago, Katie said:

Du Pont apparently associated black people with evil. As a result he placed them on a hierarchy below other races. Then he banned them from Team Foxcatcher simply for being black. Then after banning black them, he allegedly said Team Foxcatcher was now part of the KKK. 

How is that not racism?

karen...

why did he invite many black athletes to train at foxcatcher?

why are there pics of him and kevin jackson arm in arm smiling together?

these were not proganda pics... these were casual private photos that were taken...

i can only assume that you have never been around real racism because this would be extremely odd had you ever been...

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12 minutes ago, Katie said:

Also, I just learned that even before du Pont banned black athletes from Team Foxcatcher and allegedly said Team Foxcatcher was part of the KKK, he also allegedly paid the black wrestlers less and have them fewer benefits than lesser ranked white wrestlers. (See this article.)

ha, just because a lawyer said it, does not make it so...

have we all not learned that being a lawyer is the most despicable and scummy occupation there is where the vast majority of the participants have no honor at all?

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6 hours ago, tigerfan said:

Crumbs are a piece of the pie.  Enough to keep the people passive, apparently.

If people settle for crumbs that’s their choice. Problem is too many don’t want to put in the effort and are comfortable blaming the rich and powerful for their meager existence. 

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

Also, I just learned that even before du Pont banned black athletes from Team Foxcatcher and allegedly said Team Foxcatcher was part of the KKK, he also allegedly paid the black wrestlers less and gave them fewer benefits than lesser ranked white wrestlers. (See this article.)

BTW, karen...

i tried to find a resolution to this lawsuit, but, could not come up with anything...

i can only assume that it was dismissed like so many other frivolous lawsuits brought forth by scummy lawyers with no honor...

i would love to proven wrong, but, my guess is if i could be, you would have used a link to the resolution instead of grandstanding with just the filing which means jack and sh!t...

Edited by LJB

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2 hours ago, Katie said:

Du Pont apparently associated black people with evil. As a result he placed them on a hierarchy below other races. Then he banned them from Team Foxcatcher simply for being black. Then after banning black them, he allegedly said Team Foxcatcher was now part of the KKK. 

How is that not racism?

He also said he was the Dalai Lama too, so it's pretty tough to take a lot of things he was saying or doing seriously.  Yes he said that and yes he had strange quirks that manifested with him doing a variety of bizarre things.  Do you think he was the Dalai Lama? Do you think it's normal for a 50+ year old man to build a giant birds nest and squawk around in it naked insisting people call him the Golden Eagle? I would 100% agree if he went to the black wrestlers there and said he didn't like them because they were black and had to leave and did nothing else. But he didn't say that. He got rid of everything black around him, cars, houses, etc. They were just a part of his mental illness/drug abuse manifesting itself in some bizarre ways. The problem people had with USA Wrestling was this kind of thing kept happening and USAW ignored it, and sadly because they ignored him doing crazy things, Dave got murdered. 

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33 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

He also said he was the Dalai Lama too, so it's pretty tough to take a lot of things he was saying or doing seriously.  Yes he said that and yes he had strange quirks that manifested with him doing a variety of bizarre things.  Do you think he was the Dalai Lama? Do you think it's normal for a 50+ year old man to build a giant birds nest and squawk around in it naked insisting people call him the Golden Eagle? I would 100% agree if he went to the black wrestlers there and said he didn't like them because they were black and had to leave and did nothing else. But he didn't say that. He got rid of everything black around him, cars, houses, etc. They were just a part of his mental illness/drug abuse manifesting itself in some bizarre ways. The problem people had with USA Wrestling was this kind of thing kept happening and USAW ignored it, and sadly because they ignored him doing crazy things, Dave got murdered. 

Du Pont’s actions clearly meet any definition of racism I can find. I really can’t add anything more to that. 

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5 minutes ago, Katie said:

Du Pont’s actions clearly meet any definition of racism I can find. I really can’t add anything more to that. 

oh karen...

to be so simple... you are adorable...

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24 minutes ago, Katie said:

Du Pont’s actions clearly meet any definition of racism I can find. I really can’t add anything more to that. 

Guys who were there at the time said it was him behaving weird and crazy and had nothing to do with racism. Angle said this explicitly, but acknowledged that guys who were on the outside looking in, like Monday, would think it was racially motivated and he wouldn't blame them since they weren't around to see his bizarre behavior every day. It's easy to call it racism, but the guy was clearly losing his marbles and spouting all kinds of weird things and nearly killing people with his antics, like the guy from FILA. If you think it was racially motivated, then you also should take him at face value on his other claims, like being the Dalai Lama. 

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I could easily see the argument that the act of forcing someone to leave could be labeled racist, but it also seems reasonable that an allowance be made for the fact that he'd lost his mind. Otherwise, you're gonna have to hold every single person in the world to their worst moments when labeling them. Seems like the guy wasn't naturally a racist, but did something after going nuts that could be seen as racist if that's what you're looking for. 

Great flavor of the week conversation - be interested tp see if anyone pushing the topic cares in 3 months.

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7 minutes ago, Janderson133 said:

I could easily see the argument that the act of forcing someone to leave could be labeled racist, but it also seems reasonable that an allowance be made for the fact that he'd lost his mind. Otherwise, you're gonna have to hold every single person in the world to their worst moments when labeling them. Seems like the guy wasn't naturally a racist, but did something after going nuts that could be seen as racist if that's what you're looking for. 

Great flavor of the week conversation - be interested tp see if anyone pushing the topic cares in 3 months.

Personally I hope we re talking about literally anything other then DuPont and his moral compass in 3 months 

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1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Personally I hope we re talking about literally anything other then DuPont and his moral compass in 3 months 

who knows...

karen may want to pick the scab off another old would due to somehting she heard on the "news"

virtue signaling at it's finest!!!!

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