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VakAttack

Top 5 Penn State wrestlers of all time

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7 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Quinten Wright isn’t to far off any of these guys he took 6th as a true freshman before Cael got there then redshirted and went 1,2,1, if he had just redshirted right away like nickel, nolf, cenzo good chance he’s a 4x finalist 

To, too, two.  These three words cause some of the most common grammar problems as they are commonly misspelled or used wrong.  

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11 minutes ago, buck said:

To, too, two.  These three words cause some of the most common grammar problems as they are commonly misspelled or used wrong.  

You have grammar issues in your own post, bruh.

Don't be that guy unless you can be that guy.

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6 hours ago, Perry said:

1. Zain Retherford (likely 4x undefeated if he didn't go as a true frosh) 5,1,1,1 2x Hodge

2. DT 2,1,2,1 2x Hodge

3. Nolf

4. Ruth

5. Nickal

I like your order reversed better than how you have it.

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The interesting thing to me is that there are reasonably convincing arguments for all 5 of these guys (Retherford, Taylor, Nickal, Ruth and Nolf) to be be considered PSUs "best ever" and, if one or two moves had different results in any of their careers, that could change that person to an undeniable "greatest." 

I will go with Nickal as the greatest because he had no lapses (that I can recall, and I don't consider getting put on his back against Martin in the finals his junior year a lapse) in his last two years.  I believe all the knocks against him are from his freshman and sophomore year.  I guess Retherford is about the same but Nickal just seemed ever so slightly more dominant.

 

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41 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

How can DT be above Bubba?  :)

This is a solid group.  Holy smokes! 

Who was the best wrestler DT beat in college? Tyler Caldwell comes to mind.

That's the one thing I held against DT, he really doesn't have any "elite" wins.  Not totally his fault, obviously, other than the fact he lost three times to Kyle Dake which was in his control.  I'd say his best wins are either over Tyler Caldwell or Derek St. John.

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37 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

That's the one thing I held against DT, he really doesn't have any "elite" wins.  Not totally his fault, obviously, other than the fact he lost three times to Kyle Dake which was in his control.  I'd say his best wins are either over Tyler Caldwell or Derek St. John.

DSJ seems like a solid quality win.  Maybe not the same as Stieber (Retherford), Imar (Nolf), Dean (Nickal), but it isn’t far behind.  I’m blanking on Ruth’s best win?

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17 hours ago, buck said:

Edmond Ruth is going to be a force for Lehigh.

He is not his brother.  I can see Edmond as an AA his senior year, maybe his junior year as well but I think that's his ceiling.  

Edited by StallWarning

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14 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

Thats a very poor argument in light of the fact that Martin beat him twice. 

Makes way more sense to say Taylor would have been a 3X.

Good point. Perhaps the biggest question about Martin is how he lost in Pittsburgh as a senior.

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

DSJ seems like a solid quality win.  Maybe not the same as Stieber (Retherford), Imar (Nolf), Dean (Nickal), but it isn’t far behind.  I’m blanking on Ruth’s best win?

In terms of skill or accomplishment at the time of the win?

Accomplishments is probably Steve Bosak.

In terms of skill?  Probably Gabe Dean or Mack Lewnes.  Sorry Cornell fans.  Did he ever beat Chris Perry?

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12 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

In terms of skill or accomplishment at the time of the win?

Accomplishments is probably Steve Bosak.

In terms of skill?  Probably Gabe Dean or Mack Lewnes.  Sorry Cornell fans.  Did he ever beat Chris Perry?

Not in Folk.  I am not sure, but I don't think they wrestled in Free either.  

Amuch beat Perry rather convincingly in the Semis and then Ruth THRASHED Amuch.....

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Aaron Brooks will go down as the best* and he gets that huge asterisk because he will be a 3x champ that never got to go for it as a freshman when Zahid was out, and the  forum posts  newspaper stories practically write themselves.

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15 hours ago, Katie said:

In terms of NCAA hardware alone, it's:

  • T1- Nickal (2-1-1-1)
  • T1- Nolf (2-1-1-1)
  • 3- Ruth (3-1-1-1)
  • 4- Retherford (5-1-1-1)
  • 5- Taylor (2-1-2-1)

I consider making a world team to be more difficult than winning an NCAA title, and world/Olympic competition to be more difficult than that. So when freestyle's included, my top five would be:

  • 1- Taylor (world/Olympic 1 + NCAA 2-1-2-1)
  • 2- McCoy (world/Olympic 4-5-4-2-7 + NCAA 1-3-1)
  • 3- Kolat (world/Olympic 2-3-4-9 + NCAA 2-3)
  • 4- Retherford (world/Olympic 11-26 + NCAA 5-1-1-1)
  • 5- Abe (world/Olympic 30-15-11 + NCAA 4-3-2-1)

 

 

 

You make good points, and I didn't consider the pre-Cael guys when taking into account freestyle accomplishments.  I agree with this except I would have Kolat higher than McCoy.  I think you have to count Kolat's two titles with Lock Haven if we are counting freestyle.  Kolat has 2 world/Olympic medals (should have been more but he was robbed) to McCoy's 1, and Kolat matched McCoy's NCAA results plus a runner-up.  

I think that there is also a huge difference between making the Olympic team versus making a world team, which is why I would move Abe ahead of Zain.  I know Abe represented Japan at both the Olympics and worlds, but making Japan's team as a freestyle lightweight is just as hard as making Team USA for the Olympics.  Making an Olympic team is huge and when we're talking about the best of the best, not making an Olympic team is a huge hole on Zain's resume.  

Furthermore, I would also move Ruth ahead of Zain because both are 3x NCAA champs and Ruth has a 3rd to Zain's 5th.  I get that Zain made two world teams to Ruth's 1, but neither of them placed top-5 at senior worlds.

With that being said, my revised list would be:

1. Taylor
2. Kolat
3. McCoy
4. Abe
5. Ruth

If one of the young guys like Zain or Bo either makes an Olympic team or wins an Olympic or senior world medal, they pass Ruth.  

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On 6/17/2020 at 5:33 PM, Antitroll2828 said:

It’s tough to put Ruth ahead of Bo when they have a common opponent Bo beat a better version of, the guy that Ruth split with his senior year 

I think Ruth and Dean wrestled 3 times that year with Ruth pinning him the first time pretty quickly 

 

He may have underestimated him at the Scuffle because of that.

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The interesting thing to me is that there are reasonably convincing arguments for all 5 of these guys (Retherford, Taylor, Nickal, Ruth and Nolf) to be be considered PSUs "best ever" and, if one or two moves had different results in any of their careers, that could change that person to an undeniable "greatest." 
I will go with Nickal as the greatest because he had no lapses (that I can recall, and I don't consider getting put on his back against Martin in the finals his junior year a lapse) in his last two years.  I believe all the knocks against him are from his freshman and sophomore year.  I guess Retherford is about the same but Nickal just seemed ever so slightly more dominant.

 

He didn't make the Big Ten finals his junior year. Is that a lapse?;

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

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34 minutes ago, PHL said:

I think Ruth and Dean wrestled 3 times that year with Ruth pinning him the first time pretty quickly 

 

He may have underestimated him at the Scuffle because of that.

The ncaa Semi was pretty close, couple close calls that didn’t go deans way. Good call though, completely forgot they had wrestled pre scuffle  

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9 hours ago, VakAttack said:

In terms of skill or accomplishment at the time of the win?

Accomplishments is probably Steve Bosak.

In terms of skill?  Probably Gabe Dean or Mack Lewnes.  Sorry Cornell fans.  Did he ever beat Chris Perry?

Wouldn’t Gabe Dean be better in accomplishments?  Or do you mean at the time of.  He beat Hamlin in finals also that’s a quality guy.

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Going by NCAA career only (as we should be)

1. Nolf - 2,1,1,1 only person he really lost to is IMar who he also beat and IMar is an all-time great type wrestler. So his losses are “better” than anyone else.

2. Ruth - 3,1,1,1 I look at a 3rd and 2nd place finish as pretty much equal so he and Nickal are very close. I gave Ruth the because I deem his losses as slightly better. Only two compared to three for Nickal. One was an injury default (I know he was getting beat) and one was avenged later that season. 

3. Nickal - 2,1,1,1 see above. He is clearly above Zain and DT based on NCAA results

4. Retherford - 5,1,1,1 the 5th hurts him but I think we need to consider that it was without a redshirt. I think you have to put a 3 time champ above a two time champ (Taylor) even if he was a 4 time finalist. Also, Taylor wouldn’t have been likely to better than 5th as a true freshman.

5. Taylor - 2,1,2,1 Absolute stud and definitely the best overall (considering post collegiate), but going by NCAA stats, I think you have to put him last in this group

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12 hours ago, VakAttack said:

That's the one thing I held against DT, he really doesn't have any "elite" wins.  Not totally his fault, obviously, other than the fact he lost three times to Kyle Dake which was in his control.  I'd say his best wins are either over Tyler Caldwell or Derek St. John.

He did beat Steve Fittery who was crushing everyone that year including St. John and several other All-Americans. But you are right he does not have a win over a returning NCAA champ or anything like that.

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